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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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 Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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Tanuki, really enjoyed reading your words. I'm not a grammarian, I only review the rules before classes start so i can be sure not to make a complete idiot of myself before class.
As a teacher we are pressed to come up with short "rules" that are wrong (at least here in China), and unfortunately (who said?) it is quite true the a few (what is that quote?) mistruths saves tons of explanations. I am sometimes tempted to tell a lie to a student (tell him a rule) because at least here in China it saves a half hour of worthless discussion with a student who wants to convince me that something his Chinese teacher who can't converse in english taught him from a book which some Chinese person who had no english wrote years before.
China is big on "rules"
I actually logged in to see who Jones was chewing out (as long as it isn't me)
Anyways
Tanuki
| Quote: |
| To which I would answer: "Because it is MORE LIKELY that the speaker wants to emphasise the duration of that action before now. In this case the painting over a period of time" Why? I dunno. |
I dunno I will ASS U ME that that Tanuki is really saying, "The why is simply not relevant" And grammatical correctness would certainly agree
(Tanuki?? japanese?? any actual meaning)
| Quote: |
When did you come to Thailand?
I have been living in Thailand for 2 years |
is wrong from a sociological viewpoint, and I think I would correct it as being "wrong" in my classroom. I wouldn't call it wrong, rather it illustrates a deviation from the robot-like path I want them to take in their journey of developing better comunication skills to communicate with native speakers in the business world, and score good on tests
( academically .. wrong= results in a negative conntation being associated with the answer and answerer. On an oral english level, it makes it easier for them to keep to a narrow path) See Politeness Theory (Brown & Levinson, 1987
(May I make a plug for an pompous outdated book that is true down to the last little boring letter; Erving Goffman: The Presentation of Self in Everyday Life http://employees.cfmc.com/adamb/writings/goffman.htm has a short intro to the book. A priceless book)
For any one following my ramble, it is a ramble because I am questioning my responses and thoughts as I write.
A native speaker would find "wrongness" in this exchange, even though there is nothing wrong with it, and the responder has seemingly given the questioner the exact information he has asked for.
I believe a native speaker would derive a negative connotation of the speaker, even if just slightly, more so if the responder was a non-native speaker.
If someone was grading or reading this in a piece of writing there would be some kind of negative affect (remember, as objective as we like to think we are, A Jonathon consistently receives a higher grade for the same work as a Johnny does)
I am ducking, start throwing
PS The person answers the way he does, most often to conform to the pattern of the questioners question. If we don't do this, there is "badness" connotatively attached to the answerer |
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Chancellor
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: Another grammar question |
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| TheLongWayHome wrote: |
| Nabby Adams wrote: |
Today I found myself at a loss on quite a simple grammar point.
Imagine a guy coming out of a pool. Wet.
What have you been doing?
I have been swimming for 2 hours. |
Who on earth would ask that question? Isn't it obvious from the context? |
For that matter, who would say "Imagine a guy coming out of a pool. Wet"? If he's coming out of a pool, of course he's going to be wet! |
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Chancellor
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| charlieDD wrote: |
Your other example, about someone living in Thailand, . . it's a different case / situation. It is using the PPC to express the duration of an action or condition that started in the past and continues to the present. You may also use the PPS ( simple ) to express the same thing when you are talking about certain life situations, such as living, working, teaching, etc. So, you could just as well say "I have lived in Thailand for two years" when you have, uh, been living there for two years ! Of course, there is a limit to using the PPC in this way and that is when the verb is non-progressive, such as know, love ( unless you are McDonald's and are "lovin' it" - ARGH ), like, et.
Hope this helps.
And if anyone wants, feel free to reprint, repost, reproduce all you want ! |
But the question in the example was "When did you come to Thailand?" (Emphasis mine). Coming to Thailand is, as another poster explained, a completed event. Because it is a completed event, it's really inaccurate to answer that question along the lines of "I have lived here for two years." The person wasn't asked how long he has lived in Thailand, he was asked when he came to Thailand. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:57 am Post subject: |
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"When did you come to Thailand?"
"I've been here two years now."
Seems perfectly correct to me. I think it's unlikely as an answer because we normally continue conversations using the time frame in the question, but I couldn't say it's wrong either grammatically or pragmatically.
| Quote: |
| As a teacher we are pressed to come up with short "rules" that are wrong (at least here in China), and unfortunately (who said?) it is quite true the a few (what is that quote?) mistruths saves tons of explanations. |
If you're teaching the present perfect you want to use timelines not rules.
| Quote: |
| I actually logged in to see who Jones was chewing out (as long as it isn't me) |
Nobody. Merely trying to give a short explanation. |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Arioch
Quote:
As a teacher we are pressed to come up with short "rules" that are wrong (at least here in China), and unfortunately (who said?) it is quite true the a few (what is that quote?) mistruths saves tons of explanations.
Jones
If you're teaching the present perfect you want to use timelines not rules |
I want to use timelines, the students (Chinese) want a rule to memorize
| Quote: |
"When did you come to Thailand?"
"I've been here two years now."
Jones
Seems perfectly correct to me. I think it's unlikely as an answer because we normally continue conversations using the time frame in the question, but I couldn't say it's wrong either grammatically or pragmatically. |
I would want your definition of pragmatically
In my ramble I gave why I thought it would have a negative effect/give a negative affect (however slight or not slight) socially as well as in a testing environment
I am not questioning the lack of grammatical incorrectness
I know this is a different tangent then the OP or Bamby, but the thread has been too precious to let die a quiet death. |
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Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| If you're teaching the present perfect you want to use timelines not rules. |
I agree, but why do we have to teach how to use present perfect? I don't know if Chinese has this tense, but most European languages do. We should simply have to teach how to form it. The rest, they should already know! |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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Chinese almost have no tenses
By putting "le" after a word, it makes it a "past tense"
I made a special effort to be clear my interaction is with Chinese students.
It has been estimated that for every 100 words a western language uses, Chinese only uses 70. I can't say as to other east asian languages.
In Chinese there is certainly no "I will have been". In fact, "to be" is often not used.
"I am tired" in Chinese is "wo lei" I tire (not "I am tired", nor "I tired") |
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Chancellor
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| Stephen Jones wrote: |
"When did you come to Thailand?"
"I've been here two years now."
Seems perfectly correct to me. I think it's unlikely as an answer because we normally continue conversations using the time frame in the question, but I couldn't say it's wrong either grammatically or pragmatically. |
But it doesn't directly answer the question. If the answer had been "I came to Thailand two years ago," that would have answered the question directly. If the question had been "How long have you been in Thailand?" the answer given is appropriate to the question. To use this answer with this question is to assume the questioner wants to know something other than what was asked. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:13 am Post subject: Do the math |
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Dear Chancellor,
Or perhaps you're helping him sharpen his mathematical skills.
Hmmm, been here two years; it's 2008 now, so subtract two. Aha, you came to Thailand in 2006.
Regards,
John |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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It answers the question perfectly, from a grammatical and logical framework, but likely creates some a mount, however slight of (what is the right word?) (Why do I always come here when i am tired?) Social discoginance? That spelling can't be right. A native speaker would have some neagtive affect on this "incorrect answer" Again, Goffman's book really is seminal
MOD EDIT |
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Chancellor
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| arioch36 wrote: |
It answers the question perfectly, from a grammatical and logical framework, but likely creates some a mount, however slight of (what is the right word?) (Why do I always come here when i am tired?) Social discoginance? That spelling can't be right. A native speaker would have some neagtive affect on this "incorrect answer" Again, Goffman's book really is seminal
MOD EDIT |
It isn't the least bit logical. There is a direct association between "When did you come to...?" and "I came to..." but there is no such direct association between "When did you come to...?" and "I've been here for..." |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| We should simply have to teach how to form it. The rest, they should already know! |
No! The usage is different in every language; same goes for most other tenses. |
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