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Anda
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 2199
Location: Jiangsu Province
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 Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:58 pm Post subject: Um |
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I am about to start at a Middle school here in China where the classes are from 60 to 70. I think however that my classes will be smaller.
All the theory of students being this and that style at learning is useless when you are faced with large classes and limited workable equipment.
I have found that when I have taught intensive classes that after 40 hours over a month or more that about two thirds of my students will start to speak and understand simple English. The other third take up to 20 hours more to catch up with the rest. Yep I need 4 to 6 weeks. Forty hours over two weeks doesn�t work.
Now what I discern from this is some just take more time than others to learn the way I teach. So if one has a good general method of teaching English all will learn with enough contact time.
Kids learn their mother tongue off parents and friends before the education system gets to them. Yep they all learn and some of their teachers are anything but good. |
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un
Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Posts: 670
Location: on-line china
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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Styles of Learning approaches need not be discarded in large classes.
IF...the class of 30-40-50 students can be divided into small groups of 6-8 students...with a variety of activities in different groups...
THEN...students can move to different groups/different activities.
KEY ELEMENT: the "group culture" is cultivated in the classroom...
SO THAT IT'S ACCEPTED AS "THE WAY OF DOING THINGS..." |
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Lobster
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2040
Location: Somewhere under the Sea
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: |
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un, that's a pretty darn big 'IF' in terms of activities planning, classroom and time management and observation/supervision. I'd be needing those EmWaves to control my incontinence, oops I meant incoherence. However, I think it certainly would be possible with enough prep on both the students' and teacher's part. Somehow when I think about how technology is and will be applied in the classroom here, I start to think along the lines of "A Clockwork Orange".
RED |
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eddy-cool
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 1008
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:18 am Post subject: |
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Anda's observation about kids absorbing their first language from their family is precisely what makes second-language learners work harder while others lag behind:
The mother gives you no choice but to understand or go hungry/thirsty/without sleep etc. The onus of making an effort at understanding your role-models is on the learner. A clear bonus/malus system that penalises and rewards fairly. Not that everyone acquires their mother tongue equally accurately - obviously some will be more linguistically-gifted.
In second-language instruction teachers often go to extremes in trying to please and accommodate students. There is no malus/penalty for the slackers, the rebels, the disobedient and the lazy; all get rewarded, especially here in China.
Just how much a fair bonus/malus lure can work I have had numerous chances to see. For instance, if all students have to sit through the 45 minutes of their period, no one will want to make an effort (volunteer a speech or even an answer), but if you promise them an early release they will suddenly spring into action. Trouble is that such 'bribing' of your kids is looked upon as a cop-out on your part to make your workload easier...
Today I put my unenthusiastic summer camp English practitioners through running a relay race; the weather wasn't too hot... Inside their classroom these kids can hardly be controlled, with several 12-year olds vying for everyone's attention by clowning and horsing around; now, roped into a team of 10 competing against another team they suddenly did their best to help their team win the race. All instructions were in English only, with a few rehearsals to get them to pay attention.
The sudden enthusiasm was palpable, with some even speaking in English to each other. At the end of the first period they asked me in unison (and in English) to continue this kind of class... |
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Song&Dance
Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 176
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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"Oral English" is a course taught at Chinese colleges. universities and by Corporate Trainers.
I was unaware that Oral English is taught at kindergarten, primary school or middle school. In fact my prior information was to the contrary.
Now I am confused by the numerous posts discussing "teaching" at other than the higher education level.
I am clueless in China/ Please fill me in on the Oral English curriculum at kindergarten, primary and middle school levels.
Please do not confuse me further by failing to distinguish between teaching Oral English and teaching in oral English.
Thanks folks. |
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william wallace
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 2869
Location: in between
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:17 am Post subject: |
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Because it helps a small percentage,but most importantly.
Makes lots a money....and you needn't use any academic standards |
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Song&Dance
Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 176
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:40 am Post subject: |
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| Tsuris wrote: |
I also read the "article" and was terribly unimpressed. What is being passed off here as "research" wouldn't be acceptable even for a bachelor's degree thesis. Reports from students claiming that watching movies helped them with their English language skills is about as convincing as reading about all the improvements China is making in cleaning up their environment in the China Daily.
This "article" reads like a personal blog entry on steroids: "Hey guys, guess what we've been able to do in a Chinese university? Aren't we hot sh*t!" Maybe you are, but what does that have to do with using DVDs to teach English language skills? And maybe using DVDs to teach English is extremely useful. It's just that this overly long and painfully tedious blog entry doesn't make that point.
Here's what you need to do if you really think you are onto something truly "revolutionary" (and obviously you do):
First, find some objective measure to base your conclusions on (the strength and courage of your personal convictions, as well as those of your students and mates, don't count). Remove the David vs Goliath theme and the blow-by-blow accounts of your personal trials and tribulations with Chinese academic officials, not to mention 4000 years of history, then rewrite the article in 16 to 20 pages, double-spaced, one-inch margins. Organize your content according to following headings: Abstract, Introduction, Methodology, Results, and Discussion. Use the past tense for the first three sections and the present tense for the last two. It would also be nice if you could brush up on some research methodology and report how you attempted to follow something resembling the scientific method in that section.
Cheers. |
I assume you are referring to this article:
CHINA EFL: HOLISTIC ENGLISH
The revolution has begun but the long march lies ahead.
A major research paper involving 11 foreign teachers at 6 colleges and universities in four provinces of china report the results of implementing an English acquisition program designed exclusively for Chinese college students.
http://www.usingenglish.com/esl-in-china/holistic-english-1.pdf
http://www.usingenglish.com/esl-in-china/holistic-english-2.pdf
As one of the contributors to the article I find your post most unimpressive, unhelpful, not very enlightened and insulting.
Be that as it may, I take solace in the fact that 6 Chinese institutions of higher education allowed and encouraged 11 unrelated foreign teachers to engage in such a project in the first instance. In the second instance, I am encouraged by the students' responses because they show the level of customer satisfaction in the educational product. Third, I am pleased that the article has passed peer review for publication in a major Chinese academic journal without any payment and it has been accepted by peer review as a stand alone English publication.
If you want to write an article along the lines you suggested, be my guest. It will be a completely different article, with a different purpose and a different audience. best wishes on your article.
But first, you must make nice with many people and network and cooperate and your post would not indicate that you possess those very necessary skills.
And when you invent an "objective measure" for oral English production, you will become a multi-millionaire. IELTS, TESOL and everyone else will pay you plenty. Until then, we all must rely on subjective evaluations. But of course you already knew that because you are a real expert, you have a Chinese certificate that says so and that makes it so. |
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Song&Dance
Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 176
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:20 am Post subject: |
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Arioch 36 - clearly, from all of your posts, you have your students read more English, listen to more English, write more English and speak more English.
Have you read this article?
CHINA EFL: HOLISTIC ENGLISH
The revolution has begun but the long march lies ahead.
A major research paper involving 11 foreign teachers at 6 colleges and universities in four provinces of China report the results of implementing an English acquisition program designed exclusively for Chinese college students.
http://www.usingenglish.com/esl-in-china/holistic-english-1.pdf
http://www.usingenglish.com/esl-in-china/holistic-english-2.pdf
It is what you claim is lacking. It is exactly what you say is impossible in China. It implements Krashen and other 2nd language acquisition theories at 6 different colleges in 4 provinces simultaneously and successfully. The foundation is to have the students read more English, listen to more English, write more English and speak more English.
It provides a workbook, not a textbook for oral English. It allows for each teachers' individual teaching techniques. It is a one size fits all and even delivers benefit when the teacher is a real putz.
Most interestingly, the Holistic English Program has been approved and permitted by the Educational Reform Commission of Henan Province, your stomping grounds. |
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eddy-cool
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 1008
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:21 am Post subject: |
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SongDance,
in reply to your question whether oral English is being taught at Chinese kindergartens, the answer is: Yes, very resoundingly so.
I had a much better pay as a kindergarten teacher than at colleges (except after I quit my kindergaten).
But the subject is taught much as English is taught at primary or middle school level - rote memorisation, kids chorussing after the teacher (mimicking her faulty English as the case may be), internalising everything through the medium of their vernacular or Mandarin.
Writing is frowned upon, yet kids get textbooks (and parents would be upset if that was not the case). Kids are supposed to learn to 'read' without learning the ABC...
Parents pay extra per subject, and English is one of the kindy cash cows. |
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un
Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Posts: 670
Location: on-line china
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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LOBSTER
RE: technology...and pedagogy...
AND the movie Clockwork Orange
as a techno-metaphor for future-possible Chin
(and the West, in the Past-Perfect Tense)
Granted......
Domination Values dominate in China's national pedagogy/politics...
Extrinsic Motivation.....
Product-based...
Matter-based...
...obedience to Authority
...obedience rather than inspiration
However...
Partnership Values..
and Whole-Brain learning
and China's Taoist traditions/culture/practices...
THEY PROMOTE...
Intrinsic motivation......
Process-based...
Natural...
"wu wei" ("non-doing")...
imagination..
...the QI...
..
LOBSTER
RE: "IF"ABOVE...
Arioch ABOVE offered a sports-kinesthetic metaphor
for learning as a second language...
(Such a metaphor can be deceptive/reductionist.)
Journal of Imagination in Language Learning
offers valuable INFO on what is called "making the switch"...
...from Left-hemisphere Domination to...
liberating" the right hemisphere partnership processes.
Back to Arioch's sports metaphor.
One particularly relevant element for the FT and the Coach/Director/Trainer...
That factor is...MOTIVATION.INTRINSIC MOTIVATION.
Someone ABOVE (Lobster? Anda?) mentioned that he will often "trick" his students into learning...by using games......(in the spirit of MSG/caffeine/sugar...)...
That "tricking" is...not...Promoting INTRINSIC MOTIVATION
COACHES/DIRECTORS select those they perceive to be suitable for being part of the team/cast/project.High Motivation is accepted as a GIVEN, eh?
For me, it's also a GIVEN.I choose NOT to accept unmotivated students.
It's not a suitable investment of my time/the school's money. |
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Lobster
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2040
Location: Somewhere under the Sea
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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Wouldn't the promotion of intrinsic motivation be extrinsic motivation? I seldom get a chance to choose my students at schools. By "trick" I mean having enjoyable activities that make students forget or not be aware that they are learning English.
Do you have any evidence at all of people being able to consciously control which hemisphere of the brain they use to process certain types of information, or does that just sound good to you? Sometimes you baffle me.
RED |
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Song&Dance
Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 176
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Lobster wrote: |
Wouldn't the promotion of intrinsic motivation be extrinsic motivation? I seldom get a chance to choose my students at schools. By "trick" I mean having enjoyable activities that make students forget or not be aware that they are learning English.
Do you have any evidence at all of people being able to consciously control which hemisphere of the brain they use to process certain types of information, or does that just sound good to you? Sometimes you baffle me.
RED |
Dear Red: (Lobster)
(BTW - aren't most lobsters brownish until cooked and that is when they turn red?)
I had a class of physical education majors who simply refused to come to oral English class. I called the monitor and changed the class location to the billiard parlor and had 85% attendance. Then we met at the bowling alley and had 100% attendance. After that we went snow skiing indoors, played volley ball, basked ball and finished at the swimming pool.
The deal was that I would pay the fees involved so long as everyone spoke English during the class. However, if anyone spoke Chinese then they had to pay. (This was a group of rich Shanghaiese)
Needless to say, that term cost me a lot of money because the English flowed as easily as the beer at the billiard hall. The uni then criticized me for field trips, even though the required text contained a suggestion for teachers that field trips should be liberally utilized and notwithstanding significant improvement in my students' oral English output capabilities. |
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Song&Dance
Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 176
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Extrinsic motivation when successful does become intrinsic motivation. When unsuccessful is becomes nagging? |
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Song&Dance
Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 176
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| eddy-cool wrote: |
SongDance,
in reply to your question whether oral English is being taught at Chinese kindergartens, the answer is: Yes, very resoundingly so.
I had a much better pay as a kindergarten teacher than at colleges (except after I quit my kindergarten).
But the subject is taught much as English is taught at primary or middle school level - rote memorisation, kids chorus sing after the teacher (mimicking her faulty English as the case may be), internalising everything through the medium of their vernacular or Mandarin.
Writing is frowned upon, yet kids get textbooks (and parents would be upset if that was not the case). Kids are supposed to learn to 'read' without learning the ABC...
Parents pay extra per subject, and English is one of the kindly cash cows. |
Eddie - as I said in my PM, you are cool. Thanks so much for your response.
I was aware from my kindergarten stint that FTs are employed but it was more for school marketing purposes than actual English teaching. My experience at middle school was usually 300 to 400 students in a hall to hear from the FT.
I was truly unaware of any real oral English teaching going on.
So the title to this thread could AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN MORE DEFINITIVE BY SAYING AT THE COLLEGE LEVEL.
I apologise for my ignorance! Thank you for teaching me something I did not know. |
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un
Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Posts: 670
Location: on-line china
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:29 am Post subject: |
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LOBSTER:
| Quote: |
| Wouldn't the promotion of intrinsic motivation be extrinsic motivation? |
As in...there's an extrinsic reward for:
* eating poorly cooked greasy food?
* watching a boring movie?
Learning is a seed-like organic-growth process...
Teachers-as-Cultivators learn about the NEEDS/TASTES of their students
Regardless of tastes...some needs are universal, such as
Comprehensible Input
Real Messages of Real Interest.
| Quote: |
| I seldom get a chance to choose my students at schools. |
I choose my:
*schools
*classes
*students
If there are students who are negative influences, I endeavor to have them removed...or let them be absent...
My post was specifically in response to post from Anda...
| Quote: |
| I am about to start at a Middle school here in China where the classes are from 60 to 70. I think however that my classes will be smaller. All the theory of students being this and that style at learning is useless when you are faced with large classes and limited workable equipment. |
My question is "WHY would an experienced teacher have such low standards?"
| Quote: |
| By "trick" I mean having enjoyable activities that make students forget or not be aware that they are learning English. |
When students are AWARE they're LEARNING ENGLISH...doesn't that make them feel good? Doesn't that promote intrinsic motivation?
| Quote: |
| Do you have any evidence at all of people being able to consciously control which hemisphere of the brain they use to process certain types of information, or does that just sound good to you? Sometimes you baffle me. |
Onje role of a teacher is to cultivate/promote:
*lowered Affective Filter*whole-brained comprehensible input
BELOW is from pg. 2 of "Promoting Change" thread:
| Quote: |
Journal of Imagination in Language Learning Volume VII - 2002-03
... Music and Whole Brain Learning
>> James Asher has based his Total Physical Response method on what he calls �brain switching. � He says, �My hypothesis is that no genuine learning can happen until there is a brain switch from the left to the right (Asher 1993). �There must be an image attached to the mental representation of a word in order to retain and use it. Asher presents a strong case with the following bit of research data. �Many language instructions have an illusion that left brain learning strategies are effective. Examples are pronunciation exercises, dialog memorization, pattern drills, and grammar explanations. Only 4%of those who attempt a second language with a left brain 'teaching people to talk approach ' (Behaviorist Approach)continue to fluency � ((Asher 1993). Even if the figure were multiplied by five, the results of the research are startling.<<
>> In terms of cultural diversity and learning styles, it 's clear that some cultures are more right-brain dominant than Americans are. Some ethnic groups think more in picture than in words. ESL students represent that diversity. According to H. D. Brown (1994, p. 54), some of the features of right-brain dominant personalities are preferences for drawing freedom in expressing emotions, and frequent use of metaphors. Right-brain dominant people respond well to illustrated or symbolic instructions and rely on images in thinking and remembering. Brown describes the left-brain dominant individual as verbally oriented and objective. They rely on language in thinking and remembering and tend to be analytical in their reading. The left-brain learner rarely uses metaphor.
Music with words uses both brain hemispheres...<<
===============================================
Turning Language Studied into Language Learned:CONSIDERING HOW THE BRAIN PROCESSES INFORMATION
... WHOLE BRAIN LEARNING. ... Quarterly Journal of Experimental Psychology
>>WHOLE BRAIN LEARNING
Perhaps the major benefit of learning a language by speaking in social interactions, whether feedback is provided or not, and whether the learner is at a stage to be able to absorb new information or not, is that it is an active experience involving more brain activity than just intellectual study. Speaking and listening usually involve looking at faces, which is a stimulus to vocal learning in babies (Locke 1993). People show amplified emotions and greater attention, and later remember more when faces in movies are in close-up on a large screen (Nass, Reeves et al 1995). However, exposure to language is not sufficient: interaction is needed, advises Brown (1987:33). Children who watch much TV and understand the language well enough but are hardly ever spoken to, express themselves poorly in speaking and writing (Van Evra 1990:45). |
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