|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
NumberOneSon
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 314
|
 Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 4:15 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| ChadwickKent wrote: |
Do you realize that the Bureau of Foreign Experts is usurping the function of the Ministery of Education by adopting a guideline or an interpretation which is at odds with the educational policy of the government? Such foolishness will come to naught should anyone ever bring an apropriate challenge in the courts. (By the way, I understand that one is in preparation as you read.)
I do not think the issue is as cut and dried as you would like to portray. I still believe that the article is worth reading and my reference to it will remain. Of course you are free to disagree with it, I disagree with something said in it but I do not feel compelled to state my disagreement publicly, I wrote the authors. |
I am not the one trying to portray this issue as cut and dried at
all. The authors are the ones implynig that all those English
schools are acting illegally, not me. I don't think they even
scratched the surface with their analysis before reaching their
conclusions. That's what I've said all along.
You can check if you go back and read slowly 
As far as one part of the Chinese government usurping the function
of another, let them sort it out. Until that time, it seems silly to claim
that English schools who follow one rule over the other, if that's
what's actually happening, are acting illegally.
If the laws and regulations contradict each other, then correct them at
the source; don't blame people who are trying to follow those rules.
I don't have a problem with anyone posting references to their
paper, just as I have no problem commenting on it.
In all honesty, though, I think I would have waited to publish
the paper until after it was reviewed by whatever organization
they think can make a proper ruling on their charges. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
ChadwickKent
Joined: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 55
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 10:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 217
Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 10:05 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've worked with AES in other locations, so know their typical
setup. |
#1 son
Now I understand where you are coming from! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JamesD
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Posts: 934
Location: "As far as I'm concerned bacon comes from a magical happy place."
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 10:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I noticed that in this article everyone is quoting Wolff complains about "......lack of cable or satellite television, lack of a DVD or CD player, lack of any kind of oven,...."
Free cable???? Free DVD?? Am I the only person who thinks a school shouldn't be responsible for providing all this? When's the last time anyone saw an oven in a Chinese house? And how many companies anywhere provide DVD players for their employees?
Jeez, and I thought my sisters were spoiled! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
NumberOneSon
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 314
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2004 4:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ChadwickKent wrote: |
| Quote: |
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 217
Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 10:05 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've worked with AES in other locations, so know their typical
setup. |
#1 son
Now I understand where you are coming from! |
Yeah, like having personal experience with a school
that DIDN'T screw me over is some kind of problem?
Having positive experiences with one of the schools
maligned in that paper tipped me off that something
about it wasn't right.
Yep, I've worked with AES. Their hiring seemed pretty
legal to me. Visas all in order, paid as promised and on
time. No major surprises that sent me into hysterical
fits.
There must be a vast government conspiracy that allows
them to do this with all the hundreds of "illegal" teachers
they hire.
In your world, I guess only malcontents have anything
worth saying about their schools.
Having some business sense made it easier for me to
relate to management and not be such a whiner about
every little thing. When I could, I explained how doing
something differently was actually cheaper or more
effective and often got what I wanted.
I even fixed a few things that were broken all by myself
without having to call on the "servants" to help me.
I could have tried ranting about how unfair everything
was, but saw that others who did this rarely got what
they wanted.
I know I should have been a stereotypical whiner,
but maturity does strange things to people.
Gee, I feel so discredited. For what it's worth, I don't
have any pierced body parts, either. I'm sure that
lowers my credibility even further.
Last edited by NumberOneSon on Fri Feb 06, 2004 4:47 pm; edited 5 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
NumberOneSon
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 314
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2004 4:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| JamesD wrote: |
I noticed that in this article everyone is quoting Wolff complains about "......lack of cable or satellite television, lack of a DVD or CD player, lack of any kind of oven,...."
Free cable???? Free DVD?? Am I the only person who thinks a school shouldn't be responsible for providing all this? When's the last time anyone saw an oven in a Chinese house? And how many companies anywhere provide DVD players for their employees?
Jeez, and I thought my sisters were spoiled! |
Yeah, you've hit on the basic problem. A lot of people like
to complain about every little thing. The things people will
complain about are often silly, making the serious problems
less likely to be heard.
Between that and the trumped-up charges of "illegal" behavior
for every misreading of a contract, it's easy to see why some
schools turn a deaf ear to the constant complainers, irritating
them even more.
After all, their businesses do involve a little more than catering
to every whim of their teachers.
So some teachers try to get revenge by plastering the web
with papers claiming that nearly all the schools are run by
deceitful criminals.
It's a bit over the top. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
skyline5k
Joined: 26 May 2003
Posts: 57
Location: Tangshan, Hebei
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2004 10:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| We're definitely not giving anyone a DVD player, but as for apartments, I do the inspection before we rent one, and I do make sure that the TV isn't a model left over from the cultural revolution and is at least DVD compatible. Pretty harsh what landlords will try to pass off as a TV. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ChadwickKent
Joined: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 55
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2004 12:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
JamesD
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Posts: 54
Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 10:26 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I noticed that in this article everyone is quoting Wolff complains about "......lack of cable or satellite television, lack of a DVD or CD player, lack of any kind of oven,...." |
I have read and reread the article several times and am unable to locate anything even remotely similar in the referenced article.
Are you smoking something funny? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JamesD
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Posts: 934
Location: "As far as I'm concerned bacon comes from a magical happy place."
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2004 7:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="ChadwickKent"]
| Quote: |
I have read and reread the article several times and am unable to locate anything even remotely similar in the referenced article.
Are you smoking something funny? |
http://www.esl-lounge.com/qiang-wolff-china-esl.shtml
Page 1, fourth paragraph from the bottom.
"However, even the best of the "western style" housing is still housing in China, designed and built according to Chinese standards and interpretation of "western style housing" by people who have never been to the west. There are instances of regular power outages, lack of adequate heat, lack of adequate hot water, lack of cable or satellite television, lack of a DVD or CD player, lack of any kind of oven, censored Internet access, etc."
It's this kind of attitude that makes me wonder. Why do people expect free cable, a DVD player, or satellite TV? Does anyone in the west get this from their employer? I understand about living in a foreign country and how some things should be provided, but come on!!!
Even Wolff notes that it's "Chinese standard". So China should change their standards to accommodate the foreigners?
Power outages - Yeah, those damned bosses sneaking down to the power station and cutting lines.
Adequate heat - I don't hear the neighbors complaining, only the westerners who grew up in climate controlled houses who whine when it drops below 70 degrees. Put on a sweater for chrissakes.
Ovens - Chinese don't use ovens very often but somehow they've managed to survive.
If we're going to judge the housing in China by western standards then why don't we all demand houses rather than apartments with two full bathrooms and a fenced yard? Why not demand personal cars and free food?
My main argument with this article is it's unrealistic expectations of what a teacher needs to live and what an employer should be responsible for. I want my MTV!!
I agree that the housing should be habitable and as comfortable as possible but there comes a point where it isn't feasible to provide what we're used to. The sad thing is that there actually are teachers who come to China and then complain because the television programs are in Chinese.
Duh! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JamesD
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Posts: 934
Location: "As far as I'm concerned bacon comes from a magical happy place."
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2004 7:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
A note on how narrowly (or poorly) this article was researched, here's a quote from two paragraphs later.
"According to the relevant regulations of the People's Republic of China, foreign experts cannot rent and live in ordinary apartments. Such rule is enforced out of consideration of administration, as well as to ensure the expert's security in China.......(1994, Guide for Foreign Experts Working in China, State Bureau of Foreign Experts, p.55)......It should be noted that this regulation is somewhat outdated as foreign experts are now allowed to live in certain designated regular apartments in certain major cities and some schools charge for rent and utilities for "on- campus" housing."
I've lived in regular Chinese apartments since I arrived several years ago. If the regulation is outdated then why does he even use it? The "certain major cities" exception is simply not true. It would be more correct to say that housing is still restricted in 'certain smaller communites'.
I guess Wolff included this quote because it supports his arguments, not because it's actually true. It may be the regulation but it sure isn't in practice. The whole piece is full of twisted logic and irrelevant or outdated citings which seem to make the article subjective rather than an impartial reporting of facts. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ChadwickKent
Joined: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 55
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2004 9:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
Wow!
I guess you missed the point that the authors were dealing with real or actual complaints lodged by EFL teachers in China and explaining them under existing regulations and realities.
You missed the point that the authors lodged no independent complaints of their own.
I teach reading comprehension if you would like to improve yours.
On second thought, let me apologise for that last sarcastic remark. NOT! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Crippler
Joined: 03 Jan 2004
Posts: 141
Location: Dongguan
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2004 9:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
I read the article (very boring). It is filled with much propaganda and reads more like Yellow journalism one would expect in some of the sleaze mags in the US. Full of half truths, old history and downright lies. Looks more like a rant by a person with a vendetta than a far article. I get to live in regular housing, have no restrictions, and nobody checking on me. I live in a small town (550,000). Of course they didn't give me a DVD, I bought one much cheaper than I would get it in good old USA I might add. I can go to the local pool hall, swimming pool and bowling alley without restrictions, yes and they charge me the same price the locals pay. I wonder why some folks actually decided to come to a foreign country that does not have the same cultural values as western "civilization." There are several ESL jobs Stateside for those who want the comforts of home. Would have to sacrifice the buying power of the Yuan though.....
I think China is starting to attract a new breed. Something like the rich American socialite who thinks roughing it is when she has to drink her champagne from a drinking glass.......... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ChadwickKent
Joined: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 55
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2004 9:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Crippler, I would extend the same reading compehension offer to you, that is if you were teachable, which I seriously doubt. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
NumberOneSon
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 314
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2004 4:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| skyline5k wrote: |
| We're definitely not giving anyone a DVD player, but as for apartments, I do the inspection before we rent one, and I do make sure that the TV isn't a model left over from the cultural revolution and is at least DVD compatible. Pretty harsh what landlords will try to pass off as a TV. |
Well, let me tell you I once got a TV that WASN'T DVD compatible,
and boy was I pissed! I nearly did a run on the school for that.
Imagine the nerve of a school abusing me that way after I travelled
all the way to China! 
But, guess what? For about 50 yuan, you can buy a small box
that converts the DVD output to standard cable. You plug the
silly thing in and your DVD works just fine. And I rather enjoyed
going out into the electronics market on my own looking for
the device that I was fairly certain existed. After all, I probably
wasn't the first person to face such a crushing diappointment.
I know, I know. I should have curled up into a tight ball and
whined about how my contract wasn't being fulfilled and forced
them to buy me a new TV, but something got into me and I just
fixed the problem myself. Then I showed the Chinese staff how
to fix it if it ever happened again and gave them a spare box.
But, they really had me going for a while... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
NumberOneSon
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 314
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2004 4:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ChadwickKent wrote: |
I have read and reread the article several times and am unable to locate anything even remotely similar in the referenced article.
Are you smoking something funny? |
It's from the other Wolff paper, "China ESL. An Industry Run Amuck?"
"There are instances of regular power outages, lack of adequate heat, lack of adequate hot water, lack of cable or satellite television, lack of a DVD or CD player, lack of any kind of oven, censored Internet access, etc."
I figured that out in about 10 seconds since I read both of the
articles. If it isn't in one Wolff article, check the other before
you start attacking the reading comprehension skills of others.
Odd that you (with your superior reading comprehension skills)
missed the other article since you were the one who posted the
link to it:
"I recently came across a couple of articles that may assist in making such an important choice.
http://www.esl-lounge.com/qiang-wolff-index.shtml "
Note that you said "a couple of articles"...
Try reading both of them before attacking others on their analysis
of the articles.
Last edited by NumberOneSon on Sun Feb 08, 2004 4:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
NumberOneSon
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 314
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2004 4:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ChadwickKent wrote: |
Wow!
I guess you missed the point that the authors were dealing with real or actual complaints lodged by EFL teachers in China and explaining them under existing regulations and realities.
You missed the point that the authors lodged no independent complaints of their own.
I teach reading comprehension if you would like to improve yours.
On second thought, let me apologise for that last sarcastic remark. NOT! |
Still trying the ad hominem attacks, eh? It seems that you
could use a class in critical thinking (oh, wait, ad hominem
attacks are your forte, not mine, so forget I said that). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
