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originaloli
Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 25
Location: Little Lisbon, London
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 Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:37 pm Post subject: This seems unreasonable and unfair! |
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I'm going to an interview here in London for ECC tomorrow. Upon reading their manifesto I'm rather shocked. I realise that there's dues to pay in any given career and I don't expect a perfect job. However, this seems ridiculous. ECC are offering me the following:
A minimum 90(!) day turnaround between interview and start of training.
No flexible holiday days until April 1st.
No sick pay (though this is maybe Japanese standard?).
Nothing but evening work.
No weekends off.
No consecutive days off in a week.
A one week window in which to arrive in the country.
Work in various different locations through a day.
1hr, 1 way commute times.
Is this standard fare? If no-one's going to offer anything better then I guess I'm over a barrel and I might as well accept it. On the other hand, whatever happens, I'm arriving in Tokyo come mid-Oct with my g/f. If I pound the streets and sell myself 10hrs a day across town might I get something a little more reasonable? We don't want to move to Japan and be a couple who are reduced to writing notes on the fridge to communicate. There's no going back now though - Em's on the verge of signing a contract with Tokyo 2016.
I'm planning to have a full and frank discussion with the ECC people tomorrow but I have the worrying feeling that they're not going to bend on some of these things. A few I can compromise on, but together this seems unreasonable. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad for someone who was single and flexible.
Oli |
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Apsara
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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Most of that sounds pretty standard for an eikawa although it's the first time I've heard of the 90-day turnaround. The working hours are based on the schools' busy times, which are weekends and evenings as most of your students would be office workers- it's a service industry so 9-5 Mon-Fri jobs are rare.
Even in New Zealand you don't usually get your paid holidays until you've been with a company for a minimum of 6 months- is it different in the UK?
If you want weekends off and no evening work, you would probably be better off looking for an ALT job. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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Let me try to explain some of these things.
Ninety days from interview to training.
They are interviewing in advance of their need for teachers, plus it takes 4-8 weeks alone just to get you a work visa. (Training won't be much, by the way, if anything.)
No flexible holidays until April 1st.
By law they are not obligated to give you anything for the first 6 months.
No sick pay is the Japanese way. You take your paid vacation time for that. Even Japanese do that.
Evening work.
Customers are available from noonish to 9pm, so that's when most eikaiwa set their hours. Didn't you know this about eikaiwas?
No weekends off/no consecutive 2 days off.
Hey, they need the customers, but at least you get the legal 2 days off per week. Perhaps there is someone there you could swap a shift with? Perhaps this situation will change after you've been there a while and showed them what you can do.
One week window to arrive? Sounds strange especially since you wrote there's a 90-day period from interview to training. I don't think you have explained this well enough. Besides, ECC arranges discount flight fares for you. http://www.japanbound.com/support.html
Work in various locations.
Also odd for an eikaiwa. Is this with the regular branch of ECC, or are you looking at some dispatch ALT end of things (which would be completely normal)?
Commute times.
Get used to it. It's Japan.
| Quote: |
| On the other hand, whatever happens, I'm arriving in Tokyo come mid-Oct with my g/f. If I pound the streets and sell myself 10hrs a day across town might I get something a little more reasonable? |
Bad time of year to come. In fact, it's the start of the slowest time of year. You'll definitely have to pound those streets hard. In fact, you should prepare to contact potential employers before you even set foot here. And, remember that even if you get hired the day you arrive (unlikely), you will still have to wait for that visa. First paycheck may not come for 4-6 weeks after you start working, too. Bring money.
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| We don't want to move to Japan and be a couple who are reduced to writing notes on the fridge to communicate. There's no going back now though - Em's on the verge of signing a contract with Tokyo 2016. |
What is "Tokyo 2016"? If it is a regular 9 to 5 type of job, then you will have to get used to working the noon to 9pm shift, at least early on, and see each other after 10pm. Employers do not usually accommodate rookie employees in this world, and Japan is no different.
By the way, what are your qualifications for this job? |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:48 pm Post subject: Re: This seems unreasonable and unfair! |
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| originaloli wrote: |
I'm planning to have a full and frank discussion with the ECC people tomorrow but I have the worrying feeling that they're not going to bend on some of these things. A few I can compromise on, but together this seems unreasonable. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad for someone who was single and flexible.
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You have the wrong attitude completely. Specifically, you have the wrong attitude in so far as you think you have any position to change what they offer. You don't. You are another warm body to them and if you don't like what they offer then they will simply move on to the next lump of warm meat that wants entry to Japan.
This was your first test of Life in Japan, and you failed already.
Sorry.  |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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Glenski posted
| Quote: |
| No sick pay is the Japanese way. You take your paid vacation time for that. Even Japanese do that. |
Generally eikaiwa jobs don't have designated paid sick days, though some do. Many regular Japanese positions do have sick days (and even special once a month days for the ladies   ).
Glenski posted
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Work in various locations.
Also odd for an eikaiwa. |
No, it might not be depending on the school, though this type of schedule is more often used by smaller schools. Sometimes it's a way of breaking in new teachers, as they are forced to fill in as substitutes for wherever the company has a hole in their schedule for when people are sick, on vacation, etc.
G Cthulhu posted
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| You have the wrong attitude completely. Specifically, you have the wrong attitude in so far as you think you have any position to change what they offer. |
Op posted
| Quote: |
| I'm planning to have a full and frank discussion with the ECC people tomorrow but I have the worrying feeling that they're not going to bend on some of these things. A few I can compromise on, but together this seems unreasonable. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad for someone who was single and flexible. |
Hmm, are you sure you want to come to Japan? I suppose you could ask about the terms, but the company is pretty unlikely to bend any of the employment terms. I would be more likely myself to ask about them being 'flexible' if and when you're offered the position, not when you're still being considered for it. Most likely if you do as you intend, ECC will consider that most of the other applicants are more eager and 'flexible' and hire one of them instead. |
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wayne432
Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 255
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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To be honest, it sounds pretty much like my job right now. I actually shift to another location on occasion to teach lessons, but it's not that far away and the school pays for transport of course. Still with ECC, I don't quite get why they'd have you at multiple locations...
The one-way hour commute sorta sucks, but it also depends on where you're located.
| Glenski wrote: |
| What is "Tokyo 2016"? |
2016 Olympic Campaign in Tokyo I would guess. |
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dodgee
Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Posts: 47
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski keep up old bean. Tokyo 2016 refers to the Olympics it is a very prominent slogan everywhere. If your partner is guaranteed work and you are here on a whim I would suggest you might also look at a place like Westgate who have reasonable flexible contracts of varying lengths. 3 , 4, 7 - month gigs. They generally place you where you want to go to. They hire all-year round too as they have taken hold in the University system (particularly in and around Tokyo). Much to the chagrin of older, more qualified, but often also more cynical, and lazier and as a result non-tenured university teachers. |
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GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:01 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
No weekends off/no consecutive 2 days off.
at least you get the legal 2 days off per week. |
Most teachers (including foreign teachers- even if they have no classes) in private high schools have to work every other Saturday (in reality, it's closer to two out of every three Saturdays). And in the public school system most Japanese teachers are there pretty much every Saturday. Japanese teachers do it because of the bonuses and frequent guaranteed raises. Foreigners get neither of these things.
ETA: if it really strikes you as unreasonable and unfair... don't accept the job. The fact that your girlfriend is going to be here isn't incentive for them to bend rules for you, if anything the majority of the time that kind of thing, if it is used at all, is used against you because they think the chance of you turning down lower offers is less (i.e. you are 'trapped'). |
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shuize
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1270
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:49 am Post subject: Re: This seems unreasonable and unfair! |
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| originaloli wrote: |
| I'm planning to have a full and frank discussion with the ECC people tomorrow but I have the worrying feeling that they're not going to bend on some of these things. A few I can compromise on, but together this seems unreasonable. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad for someone who was single and flexible. |
You're joking, right?
Please say you're serious. I look forward to the funny this thread could deliver if you are. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:25 am Post subject: |
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| dodgee wrote: |
| Glenski keep up old bean. Tokyo 2016 refers to the Olympics it is a very prominent slogan everywhere. |
Thanks for the clarification, old chap. Seems odd, though, doesn't it, that one's partner has a job for an Olympics event that is 8 years away, yet originaloli is planning to come here this year. Oh, well.
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| I would suggest you might also look at a place like Westgate who have reasonable flexible contracts of varying lengths. 3 , 4, 7 - month gigs. They generally place you where you want to go to. They hire all-year round too |
Yes, the contracts are short, but they have their own fixed hiring times, so as much as you might find them advertising at various time of year, they are sometimes not accepting applications. And, as for placement, I've never heard it being so lenient as you put it.
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| as they have taken hold in the University system (particularly in and around Tokyo). Much to the chagrin of older, more qualified, but often also more cynical, and lazier and as a result non-tenured university teachers. |
Perhaps you are trying to josh and nudge-nudge a little here, but I think the many non-tenured uni teachers would feel a wee bit cranky if you label all of them as lazy. You might want to tone down that remark a bit, old bean. |
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ripslyme
Joined: 29 Jan 2005
Posts: 481
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:29 am Post subject: |
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Come over with Em on a "dependent visa" in mid-October.
Pound the streets in Tokyo once you arrive and get your new employer to sponsor a proper working visa. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| GambateBingBangBOOM wrote: |
| Glenski wrote: |
No weekends off/no consecutive 2 days off.
at least you get the legal 2 days off per week. |
Most teachers (including foreign teachers- even if they have no classes) in private high schools have to work every other Saturday (in reality, it's closer to two out of every three Saturdays). |
Yes, that's true. I used to work in a private HS. The requirement was 2 Saturdays, only half a day required and the rest was up to you, per month. If those were consecutive, so be it, but usually in my school they had a week in between when you had both Sat and Sun off.
Unfortunately, if you got stuck with a sport club that practiced a lot, you might be there 7 days a week. I don't know how private schools get around the law on that or on the every other Sat rule.
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| And in the public school system most Japanese teachers are there pretty much every Saturday. |
Is this mandatory?
[/quote] Japanese teachers do it because of the bonuses and frequent guaranteed raises. Foreigners get neither of these things.[/quote]Are you talking about public or private schools here, and solo teachers or ALTs, and FT or PT teachers? I ask because at my private HS, solo FT teachers got pretty much exactly the same as the Japanese teachers.
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| ETA: if it really strikes you as unreasonable and unfair... don't accept the job. The fact that your girlfriend is going to be here isn't incentive for them to bend rules for you, |
So true! You're going to find it very hard to negotiate with most employers, I think, mostly because there are 100-200 people in line behind you willing to take the job at practically any chance. For proof, witness the lower and lower salaries that people are taking these days (even as low as 150,000-180,000 yen/month for full-time work!). |
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GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:10 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Japanese teachers do it because of the bonuses and frequent guaranteed raises. Foreigners get neither of these things. |
Are you talking about public or private schools here, and solo teachers or ALTs, and FT or PT teachers? I ask because at my private HS, solo FT teachers got pretty much exactly the same as the Japanese teachers.
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Talking about full time teachers in both private schools and public systems. I'm in Kanto, and there aren't many foreigners who are allowed to teach solo, even ones hired directly by the school. But there are some who are. They make exactly the same as the people who teach with JTEs. And just like the 'ALTs' get no raises etc.
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The requirement was 2 Saturdays, only half a day required and the rest was up to you, per month. If those were consecutive, so be it, but usually in my school they had a week in between when you had both Sat and Sun off.
Unfortunately, if you got stuck with a sport club that practiced a lot, you might be there 7 days a week. I don't know how private schools get around the law on that or on the every other Sat rule.
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I suspect they get around it with Japanese teachers the same way dispatch companies get around giving contracts to native English teachers that specify working forty hours made up of 8:30 to 4:30 Mon - Sat. with 2nd and 4th Saturdays off (this is far more than 40 hours). People don't complain because they will lose their jobs, and so the law doesn't actually matter all that much. |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| What is "Tokyo 2016"? |
I too would ask this question as Tokyo hasn't won anything yet as they are still trying to get the Olympics, and what does that have to do with a language school? Practicing for when the hoardes of foreign visitors come?
dodgee wrote
| Quote: |
as they have taken hold in the University system (particularly in and around Tokyo). Much to the chagrin of older, more qualified, but often also more cynical, and lazier and as a result non-tenured university teachers. |
Glenski wrote
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| Perhaps you are trying to josh and nudge-nudge a little here, but I think the many non-tenured uni teachers would feel a wee bit cranky if you label all of them as lazy. You might want to tone down that remark a bit, old bean. |
I'd second that remark. Perhaps you should come and do our job for a day and you can see just how 'lazy' it is. |
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originaloli
Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 25
Location: Little Lisbon, London
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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For those that are interested,
Things went well today. The recruiters were nice if rather corporate. For the sceptical among you regarding getting messed around, they are flexible. As I expected, they are a lot easier to deal with than the brochure initially suggested. So there would be consecutive days off OR weekend days off, a mixture of evening and daytime work. So that's nice. Also, a lot of the tricksy things relating to visa/accomodation issues are easy to jiggle around depending on circumstance. Frankly, I found that being upfront and explaining the situation made life easier and allowed us to communicate as human beings.
However, they've still not got any vacancies until mid-January. They're retaining my details (so I hope the recruiter's case with my passport details in it doesn't get stolen) just in case anything comes up. At least now I know I can get through ESL interviews fairly easily. Which is good cause it looks like a CELTA and a visa aren't going to be worth all that much in Tokyo compared to a year's experience. I'm still rather surprised by turnaround times. Most large cities are easy to get work within a month. I'm considering GABA for flexibility but they seem morally dubious so wait for another post relating to that soon.
Two more things for those not interested in egotistical explanations of my personal position,
Tokyo 2016 is the bid for the 2016 summer Olympics (against Rio, Madrid and Chicago). It's a 3-horse race now, so if you're in Japan long-term you may well be seeing a local Olympics. These things are decided 7 years ahead of schedule so that they can bulldoze local landmarks (such as Tsukuji) and build idendikit stadiums in plenty of time (although Athens was still late!). My g/f is going to be consulting for them.
The week long window refers to the differential between arriving in Japan and starting training. They make out that they would be distraught if one arrived earlier but this actually is not the case.
Finally, remember that online there's no tone of voice so please be aware I may come across differently to how I would if we were in a pub. I extend the same courtesy whenever I read things online and assume people have meant things to be less stark than they've perhaps come across. Well, you know what I mean. |
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