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carl_00 · Joined: 05 Jul 2008 Posts: 82

Great post, thanks Cool

I already have the Raymond Murphy English Grammar in Use book, so I suppose I'm looking for something a little more thorough like the Celce-Murcia and Larsen-Freeman text you mentioned...Ooo new word: pedagogy, the science of teaching, I take it this is something I'm going to have to become accustomed to, are there any sources to keep abreast of the latest developments etc. within this field or is this something I need not be too concerned about right now.

Cool

Madame J · Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject:

carl_00 · Joined: 05 Jul 2008 Posts: 82

Yeh I definitely agree about the whole comfort zone thing. Though I am quite unwilling to play the clown Cool

I think it basically comes down to knowing what you're doing and what you're talking about which will gradually improve with experience, I intend on forcefully ejecting the standing up in class concerns Very Happy

it might get ugly Laughing

fluffyhamster · Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:45 am Post subject:

Hi again Carl_00, glad you found the grammar book suggestions useful. Hmm, as for pedagogy, good luck in keeping up with the latest in e.g. connected SLA research* (even if this has aided the development of more comprehensive and sounder approaches and methods in TESOL than were sometimes the rage, not that appreciably earlier methods were too bad! (see my following comments) - it isn't an area that you absolutely have to directly study or keep up with); what's probably more important I think is coming to appreciate what's proved its worth, its staying power, has retained its relevance for years if not decades (as is the case with e.g. CLT, Communicative Language Teaching, quite the "umbrella", and something which has its seeds in the ideas and ideals of the Reform Movement of the nineteenth century - that reaction against the excesses of Grammar Translation).

And what is of more ultimate worth than language awareness, a good grasp of grammar and lexis (or nowadays, lexicogrammar, phraseology)! I'm not a great fan of methodology books (I prefer to look to the language for inspiration and pretty much can always discern a natural methodology within the language (when I am selecting items for students to master productively rather than just receptively encounter and in the short term more or less pass by))...but the likes of Lewis & Hill's Practical Techniques or Scrivener's Learning Teaching (former is more pithy, but latter has a range of activities illustrated) contain enough thought-provoking nuggets to be worth reading. (Harmer's How to Teach English is a good quick survey, but nothing earth-shattering, whilst his larger and more in-depth Practice of English Language Teaching isn't particularly worth getting just so long as one intends to make up for it with several books - perhaps those mentioned below - as opposed to just making do with the one (but PELT provides a reasonable one-stop survey of the field, and has been updated at least once every decade or so - it's now in a 4th edition, with DVD of teaching clips etc)). One book that I haven't read but quite like the look of is David Nunan's Second Language Teaching and Learning.

Jack Richards' The Context of Language Teaching is a great collection of papers that will refine and add depth and sophistication to your teaching; and his and Rodgers' Approaches and Methods in Language Teaching is a good way to put LT even more into historical context (but ultimately I prefer A.P.R Howatt's History of ELT's emphasis on genuinely sound approaches and methods, particularly the "vocabulary control" of Palmer, Hornby and West).

Once you've developed your language awareness and have a grasp of general common-sense methodology, you can then survey the breadth of TESOL by means of books such as Carter & Nunan's Cambridge Guide to TESOL (take a look at the table of contents!
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0521805163/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link ). I think that the areas of vocabulary/lexis, corpus linguistics, and discourse/conversation analysis are particularly rewarding (see the list at the following link, which you may have read already from following the links I posted earlier! http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?p=547851#547851 ); here, I'll mention just Thornbury & Slade's Conversation: From Description to Pedagogy again.

All that I could then suggest is that you think about where exactly you stand in relation to issues such as EIL/ELF (English as an International Language/Lingua Franca), the role of native-speaker data and intuitions in relation to that etc, because all this will affect what sort of language you decide to prioritize and teach. Seidlhofer's Controversies in Applied Linguistics and Jenkins' The Phonology of EIL are very useful in this regard.

Then, also like I've said on one of those other threads that I've linked directly or indirectly to, Lewis's The Lexical Approach is well worth reading once you've got a bit of experience under your belt, as is Bowen & Marks' Inside Teaching.

Sorry, going on a bit again there, but I felt compelled to give you some kind of "answer" LOL! Cool

*Anybody care to recommend an introduction to SLA other than the Lightbrown & Spada, or an Ellis (he's written quite a few books on SLA, might be hard to tell which one is his best, other than his latest?).

Justin Trullinger · Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 9:19 pm Post subject:

fluffyhamster · Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 10:45 pm Post subject:

Hi JT! Heh, we mentioned Bill VanPatten before:
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?p=658625#658625

Haven't read any of his books yet but agree they look good, so I'll try to check out the one you've recommended.

Lightbrown and Spada (yup, the How Languages Are Learned), sure, it's good and makes a genuine effort to relate SLA to teaching, but I wonder if it's dating a bit (even the revised/2nd edition), and I recall that it seemed a bit lightweight (fine as an intro, but hardly the latest or most detailed survey; probably I should have asked what book would provide the best (most detailed but still approachable) overview or summary of SLA, rather than just be an introduction) - I mean, it's SLA for gawd's sake, isn't it supposed to be hard? Laughing

Justin Trullinger · Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:56 pm Post subject:

fluffyhamster · Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject:

Could you post the (SIT?) required and recommended reading lists (or a link, not that I couldn't probably Google something up myself), Justin? I think it (and any comments you might like to add) would be useful and of interest! Wink

Justin Trullinger · Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:43 pm Post subject:

Embarassingly, I can't remember what on the list is required by SIT, and what is our own...a bit worrying, as we sometimes update the list. Hope I haven't dropped anything necessary...

Embarassed

Justin

nickpellatt · Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 1522

quick update for the OP.

Whilst it may be hard to fail the course....it is easy to fail assignments and have to resubmit....I imagine that could really increase your workload and discomfort, especially if you are taking the course in another country where life is already a little hard.

My class has 12 students.....9 of whom have just failed their language awareness assignment...requiring resubmissions..

GambateBingBangBOOM · Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 2021 Location: Japan

According to this thread on the teacher's training forum you can fail a CELTA if you complain.

nickpellatt · Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 1522

interesting reading...I will remember to keep my mouth firmly shut until I have the cert in my hand then!

sojourner · Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:19 am Post subject:

Madame J,

You mentioned that you would prefer to teach young kids, rather than adults.Consequently, you might want to consider doing the Trinity College TESL Certificate course, rather than CELTA. Both are similar in content, but I have been told that the Trinity course might be a bit more relevant for one who would prefer to teach kids. But even if you do a CELTA course, you would still learn many skills that would be useful in the teaching of kids.

You also mentioned that you are contemplating teaching in China. If so, you might want to consider doing your training in Thailand. A couple of the big language school chains (eg ECC) run CELTA courses.Would be considerably cheaper than doing it in the UK !

How long do you intend to teach overseas ? Someone in this thread (or in another one initiated by yourself) mentioned that a degree is essential for all foreigners who intend to teach in China.That might be the law - but, many institutes and recruiters might "have ways" of getting over that hurdle ! Nevertheless, if you intend to be in this game for the long haul, you might want to contemplate enrolling in an online degree programme. Check out the OU site. Also, check out the University of New England site (www.une.edu.au ). (Avoid bs "universities" that offer "life experience degrees" ). It might currently be somewhat easy for a nongraduate to pick up a teaching job in China - but things could change at any time.

After graduating, you might want to consider returning to the UK for a year to undergo additional training,eg: PGCE, a polytechnic diploma in early childhood education - or, even a DELTA or the Trinity diploma equivalent. If you want to eventually get a job in something better than a run-of-the-mill language school, you would need to have formal qualifications.

In the meantime, before enrolling in a CELTA/Trinity course, do some pertinent reading, such as books by Jim Scrivener or Jeremy Harmer. Also, do some google searches on "EFL young learners", etc.

When you eventually enrol in a CELTA/Trinity course, don't leave your written assignments to the last moment. Should you ever have difficulty in understanding anything , always have a word with the trainer afterwards.Should you feel a bit worried about grammar, obtain a good book on the subject, not just for the terms used (past perfect, etc), but one that contains something about timelines (v.useful when teaching verb usage).

Someone mentioned that CELTA can be quite stressful - how very true ! If possible, try to enrol in a part-time course (eg, over two or three months, rather than the usual one month affair.

Good luck !

Peter

Madame J · Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject:

Failing individual assignments doesn't bother me so much, as long as I have that all important opportunity to retake. It would obviously still be a right pain in the arse, but not quite as devastating as failing the entire thing.

As for the Trinity cert, I'm aware that it's as valuable as the CELTA, however, is it as widely recognised? I do see it an awful lot on job adverts, however I still wonder if the CELTA is that itty bit more marketable. I really want to do whichever course will be the most widely recognised.

Would it still be cheaper to take the CELTA in Thailand even with accommodation factored in? If I were to study here I'd be staying with my boyfriend, so rent wouldn't be an issue though I would be contributing towards bills for that month. I was originally leaning heavily towards studying abroad, however the prospect of life after CELTA in another country with the possibility of having to fund several weeks of unemployment is a real deal breaker for me.

Again, it's the money issue that would be stopping me from taking a part time CELTA. I doubt my boyfriend's landlord would be happy with me staying that long, in which case I'd have to seek out accommodation for three months or so. Otherwise I'd take that option in a flash. The supposed intensiveness of the month long course does make me want to lie on the floor and cry but most people on here have managed it, so I'm sure I can!

I only really intend to teach for a couple of years tops, so I don't see this as a long term career option. You never know, I may decide I want to stick at this longer, in which case I would most definitely look into further qualifications. I can't imagine settling abroad for the long term though. As itchy footed as I am, I do love the UK and so don't wish to leave it behind for good.

Cheers for all the feedback!