Job Discussion Forums

[Anda]

Well I work at a middle School and Chinese teachers are there from about 7:30 in the morning until about 9 in the evening six days a week. They do an awful lot of exam marking that is totally boring. A fairly young teacher I know is on 2,500 RMB a month for these hours. Teachers up around 50 are on about 4,000 For these types of hours.


There are plenty that work very hard here in China for what they earn. There are also a lot that are lazy beyond words.

[englishgibson]

[flutterbayou]

Professionas all over the world receive a relocation package, and airfare is very much a term of a contract. Once interviewed, any professional would ask what sort of relocation package is offered within the organization.

Employers in many countries not only pre-pay the teacher's airfare but also pay for the spouse and up to two children to relocate.

Negotiation is a private matter, and the wiser applicant will always aim for raising the bid. If people complain that others on staff are earning more than them, they are most likely whining because they weren't insistent before signing the dotted line.

People on this forum complain and complain about wages in China, but continue to accept low rates. It makes no sense to me, nor should it to people considering teaching in China.

When you are offered a job, push for fair wages.

[A'Moo]

In all fairness, I dont disagree with EG or flutterbayou...I am in agreeance with many of their points, and encourage all to take said points into account..
BUT...In general, people overestimate the cost of tickets to get into China..I would venture to say, that from almost ANYWHERE in the world, a return ticket shouldnt cost more than 2500-3000 USD, provided you are prepared to travel economy, and bus it to an international airport...

[arioch36]

Definitely in China one should always bargain. The second year, higher paying jobs are always easier to find, although my experience with higher paying jobs leaves me preferring the lower paying uni jobs, but each to their own

This summer, even as oil prices were soaring, my round trip ticket from Henan to beijing to New York (actually Newark, best airport in the world to eat an relax) to Albany New York was only 12000 RMB, less then $2,000 U.S. No massive search for the cheapest ticket, just a call to one established company here in Zhengzhou. As a headmaster, I would fire a worker agreeing to give a laowai $5,000 for airfare. Seriously

People coming to China are rarely relocating, and schools are supposed to offer housing with all amenities. I always negotiate over size of the apartment, make sure computer, DVD, and anything else I think might be missing, is included in the contract.
I would never expect a Chinese school, or a Chinese company to pay for relocation. And if I worked as administration, I would definiltely balk at paying $5,000 to a laowai for airfare. In my many years here, never heard of anyone needing to pay over $2,000. Many schools now do include the words "airfare by the most economical means", though I have never had a problem with any tickets being reimbursed. My most expensive ticket ever was 15,500 RMB, round trip, short notice

[loboman]

[kev7161]

I agree with flutterbayou when he states that it's up to each individual to negotiate wisely (paraphrasing) before accepting and signing a contract. It makes little sense to complain afterward. If you do find yourself on the short end of the stick, then it's your job (should you stay with your current school) to renegotiate a better contract the following year or learn from your experience and get a better contract at your next job. My advice is to make a list of all you hope to get from a contract. Perhaps putting a little check mark on things that are negotiable or flexible with you and then stand firm on other things your prospective employer must give you. If you have experience and credentials, many schools may well give you much of what you ask for. But let's face it - - demanding a DVD player (for example) may not be what you should be focusing on. DVD players are cheap and easy to leave behind when you move on (or actually quite small these days and easy to pack away). "Settling" for a low salary may be something you should be more intent on changing when communicating with your school.

[arioch36]

Bargain always over salary

I don't even consider a DVD player bargaining. But at my current school, higher salary, but the new teachers have no computer at home, no DVD, one even had a squat toilet, first I have seen in many years. SO I would advise that there is a line or two in the contract that talks about the apartment, and waht is furnished

[flutterbayou]

Aren't wages confidential and negotiable in all western countries, too?

Back in the USA we've griped for years how a woman has to work twice as hard to earn equal wages and push through the glass ceiling, and discussion of salaries is considered to be a condition for termination.

I was against talk at work about wages until it positively changed conditions at our campus. During negotiations toward contract renewal a year or so back, we discovered over lunch that some of our non-native speaking colleagues had been earning 2,000 rmb less per month than the rest of us.

These were real teachers, who had the same responsibilities as the rest of us at the joint venture university. After extensive talk about fairness to all, everyone got raises for the following year.

It has a lot to do with whether administration gets positive feedback about the teacher. These second language teachers were very popular with students and worked extremely hard. When the uni got positive feedback on them, they were open to group discussion about paying everyone the higher wage for the coming year, just like Arioch points out.

The policy against discussing wages at work is practical but waves a red flag. If you see this stipulation in the contract, take it as a strong indicator that salaries differentiate and teachers earn a range of salaries.

But I just gotta' add two cents more on this flight issue. I don't expect to be pampered and would have paid for a cheaper airfare (tho' against it in principle).

My view is that the rush to get me to China to meet the employer's immediate deadline warranted that the employer cover the cost of the ticket: the ticket prices are much cheaper when paid for at that end. Where I am, the only ticket I could get within a five-day period was over 6,000 USD.

I have an excellent job where I am and prefer to remain here. But... like most of us, China gives us something money can't buy and which is very hard to describe, especially since living there is rough. I keep up with this forum only because I like the kind of people who choose China and stay there long-term. China is hard, but it sure beats working at home, part-time, without medical benefits, without the rent paid, and with high car payments and auto insurance premiums to pay.

And this sort of weighing options is also a part of negotiation.

[englishgibson]

flutterbayou, it looks like china needs those highly qualified and experienced intellectuals as you are.

salary negotiations are usually easier for younger singles that wouldn't mind moving elsewhere. i am middle aged and married with a newly born child. i also have a lot of baggage.

chinese employers are taking a path of their own which has little to do with western countries system. their recruiting techniques are just like at a supermarket with respect to their job offers and especially salary negotiations. the recent shortage of teachers in this lovely country has provided them with holes in their classrooms and those have got to be filled in...sometimes rather quickly and in a haste they offer more than the ones they've had for a long time. that's the point on here that i've been trying to maintain.

yes, if you are a great teacher/worker, you'll be wanted by many other employers. but you might have to force some negotiations if you want to stay with the same employer for higher raise than "forecasted" for you. believe it or not but in some cases some fts' contracts expire at a time when schools/centers might not immediately need the teacher. although, in three or four months yes. that means that those long term fts don't have their employers as desperate during negotiations as those that come later.

cheers and beers to all great negotiators out there

[A'Moo]

People always seem to apply western principles to employment standards in China -ie- A PHD should net you more than an MA, an MA more than a BA etc....Experience nets you more than non-experienced etal... China is much more capitalist...
YOU ARE PAID IN ACCORDANCE WITH WHAT THE SCHOOL CAN MAKE OFF YOU...
Sorry, a philipino 50 year old, no matter how qualified, isnt going to help a school turn a profit...In general, neither is an asian-american. Its not my modus operandi, so you cant be critical of me, per se. I am caucasian, fair-haired, blue-eyed, speak fluent cantonese, so I can tell the kids ugly mom's how pretty they look today. They tell their friends, and more kids enroll. Enrollment fees go up. And said school cant really afford to let me go, unless they have a suitable replacement with my attributes, which they do not. So, I know what I can ask for, and know that I'll get it...
You should too....

[englishgibson]

A'Moo, you must be the casanova kind
However, i'd be worried if those fine mothers got borred from seeing the same guy and hearing the same things

In any case, I agree with what A'Moo says up there, although I might not be in the same kind of educational institution as he is. I prepare high school grads for western unis and their parents really want their kids to get ready. They're also paying sh*t load of money to get their loved ones admitted to a fine uni abroad. It costs and it's not about our, the facilitators' look or how we flatter them.
Yes, it is about the replacement that the center/school might or might not have and that's as far as I'll go to agree here.

Cheers and beers to A'Moo's attractive look and language with the lovely or lonely mothers that he deals with