Job Discussion Forums

[Zorak03]

Hello all I have a question. I am a living in Guangzhou and a few months ago I attempted to obtain a FEC for my Z visa. However, my first attempt was rejected, the reason given was because I did not have a TEFL Certificate; I believe that was in June. Ok, I enrolled in a course and received my TEFL; reapplied in July and was rejected again... No clear reason given (to me at least) this time.

Im not the only one, pretty much every teacher at my school has had the same issue. In fact, one teacher was given the FEC and Work Permit in May. He then went to Australia and obtained a Z visa. However, when he returned to Guangzhou in June, his residence permit was rejected... Something about his degree not being good enough.

I know now the F visas have lightened up, as I was just able to receive a 6 month-multi-entry F visa from the Guangzhou PSB. I am hoping that the Z visas have lightened up as well. I am going to ask my school's FAO to re-apply on Oct 19th. Does anyone have an experience or knowledge of the current Z visa situation?

[arioch36]

A lot of mixed up terms. You do not need/can not get a FEC to get your z-visa. Your FEC comes after your z-visa.

If you are out of country the school must apply for your invitation letter, which is not the FEC, though it may be issued by the same office. The work invitation letter is what is needed to get your z-visa. After you arrive in country, and take your medical, the school applies for your FEC, which is then taken to the PSB (Public Security Bureau) to get your all-important residence permit.

I think your imprecise or incorrect language is muddying the waters

[Lorean]

Is this with just one school or many schools?

How many years of work experience do you have? Do you have a university degree?

[Zorak03]

Hello everyone. Thank you for your replys. I am really not totally sure how the process works completely, but from my understanding the rules in Guangdong Province are a little different. GD is almost like another country...
I have been told by my school and a PSB Officer, that unlike Shanghai, the FEC and Work Permit must be applied for BEFORE getting the Z visa. This is what I was told, it may not be true. However, I saw the documents of the teacher mentioned in the OP. He had two pieces of paper, one said Experts Certificate and the other Work Permit BEFORE he left to get his Z visa. He only had a TEFL and a Vocational Certificate.
I will try to lay out the whole process, first I am a part-time teacher, I run an Ebay Business selling locally made Mobile Phone. However, I love my teaching job and do not want to give it up. The real reason I want the Z visa is so I can get a driver's license and other perks not possible for those on L or F visas.
I have been in China on and off for the last two years. I moved to Guangzhou, from Shanghai, in April 2008. I was still on a Multi-entry L visa that I got state-side last year.
When my school began the visa process the first thing was to take 16 photos, and get a receipt for the PSB, for the photos.
Next, I was sent to the Hospital for my medical exam. After picking up the results, three copies, I delivered them to the FAO. I also supplied a copy of my degree (a 2 year degree in Criminal Justice), my temp residence certificate and a copy of my passport and current visa **not my passport, just a copy.**
After about two weeks, my FAO called me to tell me the PSB had rejected my documents because I did not have a TEFL certificate. I then enrolled in a 100 hour TEFL course, received my TEFL and gave it to the FAO. This time it only took about three days to be rejected.
At that point I tried resigned from my teaching job, but was begged not to leave by the management, so I told them if they can get me a Z visa I will stay.
My L visa expired last month, I used an agent to convert it into a six month F visa without leaving Guangzhou.

[Voldermort]

Sounds to me like your school is taking you for a ride, i.e. They want you to work without having to get you the legal documents. In your position I would ask to see their certificate which allows them to hire FT's.

Getting the RP (Residence Permit) is a simple process. First the school must apply for an invitation letter (whether you are in country or not), this is then used to apply for a Z visa. This visa is only permission to enter the country and is required before the PSB can issue your RP. Point to note, even if you are in country with another type of visa, you must still be issued with a Z visa before you can get a RP.

With your Z visa in your passport, the school may now apply for the FEC (Foreign Experts Certificate). To get this you must hand over your degree, Medical Exam and/or TEFL certs. With your FEC, contract and Z visa you will then be issued with a RP.

[eddy-cool]

Parts of your latest clarifications do not mesh with my experiences: The photographs you were asked to supply must come from adesignated photoshop, and you will have to provide the RECEIPT together with the pictures. The NUMBER of PHOTOS is 8, not 16; why did you have to get 16?

The Medical examination comes in two sealed envelopes addressed to two different institutions (I forgot which ones except that one was the PSB). You mustn't open them; you will hand them over to your FAO who will forward them to their legitimate recipients.

It seems to me - and I beg you not to take offence! - that yu are a borderline case of legal RP applicant; in the past you worked here without proper legitimisation, now you are working PARTTIME. The authorities don't want parttimers who pursue other, non-declared goals while living in China.

I think the fact that your employer hired you BEFORE you even had a TEFL cert made the PSB suspicious of you.

[Voldermort]

[quote="eddy-cool"]The photographs you were asked to supply must come from adesignated photoshop, and you will have to provide the RECEIPT together with the pictures. The NUMBER of PHOTOS is 8, not 16; why did you have to get 16?

The Medical examination comes in two sealed envelopes addressed to two different institutions (I forgot which ones except that one was the PSB). You mustn't open them; you will hand them over to your FAO who will forward them to their legitimate recipients.[quote]

In which province is this?

I have only needed 2 photo's, one for the FEC application and the other for the RP. Not that it's required of me when extending the RP but a further photo is required when doing the medical tests.

The last time I did the Medical (In Chengdu last year), the photo was used as ID on the check list form. They issued me with a single, simple, stamped certificate. No envelope, no additional copies, no nothing. This is ONLY required for the FEC. Once the PSB see your FEC and Z visa (and in some cases a release letter if you have an existing RP) they instantly know that you have been approved to work here and issue the RP.

Of course, I am talking about Sichuan province here. Though it cannot be that different in other parts of the middle kingdom.

[Orrin]

For some time it has been a requirement for any foreign teacher teaching any subject in at the university level in China acquire a �Foreign Expert Certificate� (FEC). The requirements for a FEC have always been: at least a Bachelor Degree, some sort of teaching certification, and at least two years teaching experience. The FEC is one of the requirements for a residence permit. That sounds reasonable enough; but here�s the latest twist.

On October 8, I, and I assume, a number of my colleagues received the following email from the HR office at our uni:

----------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Colleagues,

As you may know that the policy for apply working visa has been changed from May,
2008. All new staffing work for University have to hold �foreign expert permit�
instead of �working permit� to apply working visa. The staff who have already held
�working permit� in XXX can still renew their working visa until end of this year.

However, according to the information provided by the labour bureau, they will stop
renewing the working permits start from Jan 1st, 2009. So we have to apply for foreign
expert permit for you. The foreign expert permit is issued by Guangdong Province
Foreign Expert Bureau, with very strict age limitation as well as health situation.
For those over 60, it is very difficult if not impossible to get a foreign expert
permit. Although we have tried to argue our case, till now the answer is still �NO�.

Based on this background, we may not be able to continue your contract after you
current work permit and working visa expire. We are still trying to communicate with
the government to solve this problem, but we can't predict the result.

We will contact you very soon to discuss this issue individually.

Best regards,
XXXXXXXX
Director of HR Office


------------------------------------------------------------------

What is it with this bizarre fetish for age that is so pervasive here? Didn�t these mindless, CCP psalm-singing hacks who populate the Labor/Foreign Expert Bureau ever stop to think that perhaps, just perhaps, that these suddenly �useless�, over-sixty lecturers and professors may have picked up a bit of knowledge in their years of walking this planet that they are more than happy to share with their students? Honestly, I�m surprised that these idiotic bureaucrats have enough mental capacity to find their way to their office where they can spend the better part of their day chasing their cute little, miniskirt clad, 22yo apprentice secretary around the desk!

Exactly what are these morons afraid of? Are they afraid that these foreign, �seasoned citizens� are suddenly going to develop an irresistible urge to hang around downtown or the wet market in their pajamas, or to spit on the sidewalk or someone�s shoes on the bus, or maybe sit around the door of their apartment building and shout at each other while they play mahjong all day?

[Zorak03]

Thanks to everyone for your replies. I know im a borderline legal RP applicate. However, about 90% of FT's in China are, in fact, working without the proper documentation.

My school was *sorta* raided by the PSB about two months ago, which scared me to death when I saw three policemen standing outside my classroom. We have two teachers who are on RPs, but about 7 who are on F and L visas. I never spoke to the officers, but I was told that the PSB was ok about us working part-time on F visas, provided we have contracts of less than six-months for some reason.. I was told they wanted to see my school's business license, the two RP holder's little red book and do some sort of inspection but no other details provided.

After living in China for almost two years, I cant think of China as a nation where the rule of law applys. I know the, on the book, requirements for FT's are about the most strict in the world, a B.A + a TEFL + 2 years of experience. However, very few people who meet these standards would work here for peanut salaries. Not to mention having to deal with an army of beggars, poisonious water, having food poisoning on a monthly basis and getting black lung. Which is why, before the Olympics, my good friend with just a highschool diploma was able to get a RP. I am starting to think that my chance of being approved depends more on the phase of the moon, the weather conditions and if my application arrives before or after lunch, than the law.

[arioch36]

Zorak

[Zorak03]

After reading everything you guys are saying (Thank you all!), I am starting to wonder if my school is playing around with me. I dont think they have a reason, at least that I can see. My school is a large nationwide chain school and I know for a fact they have been able to get Z visas and RPs for their teachers, my co-workers and drinking buddys, before.
The little red book is, well im not really sure what it is, but my co-worker showed his to me, right after he got it and before the school took it. It is a cheap passpost look-a-like with a passport photo glued in and some Chinese writing. He got it from the PSB the day he got his RP stuck in his passport. I was told it is the property of the school.
Tomorrow I intend to have a meeting with the FAO to talk about things.

[Anda]

The little red book lets you job change and is not the property of the school but you have to hand it in to your employer if and when you are leaving them. I think you employer is playing games with you and doesn't want to get caught with employing you if there is a slowdown in the economy. Get a new employee like a public school before you are given the boot.

[eddy-cool]

Reply to Voldermort's questions:
Number of photographs needed/medical exam:

I'm in Guangdong. No, the authorities didn't ask for all 8 pics, I think I had to give them 5, though (I can't remember).
The photoshop prepares 8 copies of your pic for the price of 30 or 35 kuai.

IMPORTANT: In Guangdong the PSB will NOT accept photographs OLDER THAN DAYS.

[Lorean]

[Sinobear]

The FEC is a little blue book now.

A work permit is not an FEC! A Z visa is the legitimate vehicle to come to China to work. Once in-country, you apply for the work permit AND FEC if it's for teaching (or any other job that cannot be done by a Chinese national). The Africans and Middle Eastern "businessmen" that you see everywhere in GZ do not have the FEC and they don't need it. Teachers do.

If your work permit application is approved, the next step is the PSB to see if you can be approved for an FRP (Foreign Residents Permit). If they're cool with your application, it goes back to the FEB (Foreign Experts Bureau) for processing of your FEC and then back to the PSB for your FRP.

You can be denied at any stage of the game based on missing paperwork or incorrect translations of details. GZ is nortoriously stringent on details and paperwork.

As an aside, the physical is a complete joke...always has been, always will be. The last time I had a physical for the FRP in GZ, I asked the "head doctor" for the qualifications of the "doctors" performing the tests. He threatened to cancel my application if I persisted, I reminded him that Chinese law states that they must provide proof when asked. I got all of my paperwork stamped PDQ.

I do wonder which schools some of you are working for. A reputable, legit school should take of AND PAY FOR all of the legal stuff. I oversee the legalities of my teachers' paperwork and certainly it shouldn't be such a grey area or cause for stress as many posters post.

Cheers!