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teachingenglish
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 1
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 Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:25 am Post subject: |
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There are times (sometimes) when your really SHOULD believe ALL you read. This is one of them...
THIS COMPANY REALLY SUCKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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bearcanada
Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 312
Location: Calgary, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:53 am Post subject: |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:41 am Post subject: |
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some that come on forums with their first posts really come on strong and beleivable
now, i just saw a CCTV 9 (sorry) program that mentioned NEW ORIENTAL and an australian company (chivas or something like the wisky name) apparently just licenced in china in a connection of "shipping the young talent" (students) abroad...they even interviewed some students and parents to make it so believable that more should join and start with the new oriental even if from scratch (no english ok) 
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| "Connections" being the most important element of any seemingly succesful business here. |
absolutely...i know a few "succesful" chinese business people that know sh*te about what they do, but why should they 
peace to the chinese way
and
cheers and beers to joining new oriental before you go abroad |
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Holyrain
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:13 am Post subject: |
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Interesting topic... Have worked for New Oriental as a teacher in Wuhan, and have written some of their testing materials in Beijing a few years ago. The fact of the matter is: Most foreign 'teachers' who come to China are grossly underqualified and do not know how to manage a class, how to develop a proper lesson plan, or how to truly create learning and knowledge retention in students. Myself included!!!! So when a NYSE listed company like NO hires p/t foreign teachers, they aren't looking for 'teachers' as they know 95% who come cannot effectively fill out this job role. Instead they use foreigners as marketing tools, and as a way for children to get exposure and interaction with real native accents and personalities. To expect more would hurt their students results!
I used to HATE Wuhan New Oriental, it was a terrible environment for a FT imo. However, the truth is that some 60% of students who go to study overseas have used NO to pass their TOEFL or IELTS tests. Why? New Oriental's student success rate in testing is just that great. Anyways, just wanted to throw out different perspective. Enjoy! |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| The fact of the matter is: Most foreign 'teachers' who come to China are grossly underqualified and do not know how to manage a class, how to develop a proper lesson plan, or how to truly create learning and knowledge retention in students. Myself included |
Personally I find it to be the opposite. Most foreigners (Most) can teach, want to be a good teacher. But the schools are grossly unqualified to be schools, and do not know how, or do not care about how to develop a learning environment. Any professional Chinese teacher will lament the fact that people who care nothing about education (must be a Party member) are always appointed to be the heads of schools
Of course, I rarely work for language schools, or low paying gigs, or jobs that want me to teach weeknds and nights, so maybe these schools attract different laowai
Two examples? At my last college I and another foreign teacher had both worked at the school for at least one year. We presented our plans for an english learning classroom, integration, and some other things. Any improvement, hey, even just getting then to get rid of a totally worthless textbook, was like pulling teeth.
Now I am at a "chain" "school" that perhaps has the the highest tuition of any school To make even more money they shortened the 12 weeks program into 8 weeks. That is the same total number of classes, but crammed into an 8 week period. Students don't have the time needed to do the job they should. This is typical ... no care at all for the students' learning, just maximize profits as quickly as possible
No, I don't buy the old saw that most foreign teachers suck. Overall, compared to to Chinese teachers teaching english, while some FT's should have never been allowed out of their home country, much less given a teaching job, overall the average FT cares more about the class, and can do a better job, when allowed
The average Chinese teacher, even now, does not use English when teaching English. They let students sleep, play on their phones. Perhaps this is your definition of classroom management? No, laowai , on the whole, take teaching and the classroom and classroom management much more seriously ... on the whole |
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cj750nomad
Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 252
Location: Beijing and
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:36 am Post subject: |
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IELTS, and other test like these, NO's goal is training to pass test and language learning is on the 2nd level of purpose as to these classes. The FT has no experience with this kind of test and may not be useful as to the training but can be an asset when considering the student needs to become acquainted with accents and communication characteristics.
When using a terms like "Any professional Chinese teacher" and attributing those terms to an argument as if they prove a point.... is less then adequate in establishing the elements of proof to support your argument. I have found that many heads of schools care deeply about the learning process but are reluctant to take advice from those with less education of a particular science or study in which they (meaning those who are not professionals) have little in the way of career investment.
As to personal experience, it often makes up our attitudes as to a particular situation so blanket statements as "laowai , on the whole, take teaching and the classroom and classroom management much more seriously"; I have not found that to be the case. Instead,I have found a 33 1/3 outcome. That is to say ... about a third don't give a hoot, about a third tries to change things to suit themselves and a third really try to work with in the frame work given, which in my opinion makes a worker a good employee. |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:44 am Post subject: |
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Nomad, some of your critiques are spot on.
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| I have found that many heads of schools care deeply about the learning process but are reluctant to take advice from those with less education of a particular science or study in which they (meaning those who are not professionals) have little in the way of career investment. |
I just flat out have found the opposite. Personal experience. I gave two examples. First, most heads of school (we are talking about the owners and Presidents of colleges, yes?) Have absolutely no educational experience and training. This is factual when it comes to colleges, personal knowledge when it comes to "language schools" and "training centers"
I have teaching experience in the states, and 7 years in China. The head teachers of each class don't actually teach (well, one does teach one class). The DOS who is CHinese (but supposed to be a laowai) has never taught. The "owner" or lead investor does not speak english, and has never taught, though he was a school official previously.
For one class I teach, that are not ready to actualy be part of the curriculum (which teaches math, science, english, etc).
I am supposed to "just teach them english". I am told waht and how to teach by four other CHinese teachers. One is still in their 4th year of college, and never taught before. Another also is a "head teacher" who only teaches one class a week, another has never taught before, the other has taught a year or two.
I attempt to "prove" my arguments by such examples
For having 2/3 of the FTs not caring, I don't know what kinds of schools you have worked for. As I said , my experience is been mostly colleges, because, yes, in my experience the IELTS schools and training centers don't care less about the education of the students as demonmstrated by the kind of laowai teachers they do hire. Experience, dedicated FT's are easy to find ... if the school is willing to pay a little bit more for the experinced teacher, and give the experienced teacher decent accomodation
Surprisingly you offer a dingy one room apartment (or shared apartments!) working nights, no vacations and low pay, and you get laowai or are not interested in the classroom |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:50 am Post subject: |
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Nomad
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| The FT has no experience with this kind of test and may not be useful as to the training |
It only takes a couple months of teaching to knowthese tests (or a couple of weeks) so if NO kept its foreign teachers longer ... and there are plenty of foreign teachers who do have experience with these tests. My experience with these tests is why I run away from such schools. Education, getting better English skills, is not the goal ... but learning how to "cheat the test" is the goal
Plenty of studies have compared increased performances on the IELTS test between students in an IELTS class, and students in an equivalent non IELTS english class ... no difference.
But if NO wanted experienced laowai, they could have them. They don't because experienced laowai say things like
"This is not a good textbook" "This is not an effective classroom style" "I expect the bathroom in my aprtment to work" "I will not let you cheat me on my salary" |
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william wallace
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 2869
Location: in between
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:49 am Post subject: |
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When Ielts Examiners were allowed to teach at IELTS cram schools, only this school was forbidden.
A friend of my ex-wife went here a Band 4(had to supply here own chair), and when she got her results from the BC- Band 4
I think of this(and many others) "school" a capitalizing cancer. |
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cj750nomad
Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 252
Location: Beijing and
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:26 am Post subject: |
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Taking months to train personal in a kind of test may not be cost effective, however, using this same personal, who cost more in payroll then services they provide justify, to bolster the student base may be.
I can only speak of experiences I have had, as to the FTs and Presidents, and perhaps the schools I have taught at are more incline to employ those with educational experience. In Beijing, recently and due to the visa problems encountered by many foreigners, NO has offered teaching position to those who are not inclined or not motivated to be teachers and find employment in this company as a stop gap measure.
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| "This is not a good textbook" "This is not an effective classroom style" |
To be quite honest, If I said this to my employers, who are educators from a foreign university, I would likely be looking for another job. They never hired me for advice, only to perform the task at hand.
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| But if NO wanted experienced laowai |
I think that most schools as well as companies really want employees who will carry out directives, experience in my book means a good employee who can follow instructions. When I was a kid the text books we used were chosen because the Texas education system chose them due to the mass purchase power of the lone star state and for the life of me, I can never fathom, any teacher uttering the top quote above.
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| "I will not let you cheat me on my salary" |
As we are not talking salary in this thread, this can be discussed at a later time.
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| I have teaching experience in the states, and 7 years in China. The head teachers of each class don't actually teach (well, one does teach one class). The DOS who is CHinese (but supposed to be a laowai) has never taught. The "owner" or lead investor does not speak english, and has never taught, though he was a school official previously. |
While I am sure your experience offers you justification for your opinion, I also have similar experience,(same time in china) except I took an early retirement from state employment (teaching in a high-school). I really don't see the difference between your situation and the one I currently hold with a foreign university. Most of the teachers are Chinese but they do teach in English, the incounrty supervisor is a manager and a good one but with no practical teaching experience. The overseas university is an old poly tech and the board is worried about the bottom line. Maybe the difference is the pool with which the school has to draw teaching employees from.
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| I attempt to "prove" my arguments by such examples |
I think you have done a fine job in proving your opinion based on personal experience, but as to proving your argument, only you may value this as here the offering is to inform and not to decide an ultimate truth.
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| For having 2/3 of the FTs not caring, I don't know what kinds of schools you have worked for. |
As we don't know each other this is to be expected, but with time spent on the job in China being close to the same as you, I can conclude that we have had similar work situations in which all kinds of employers, schools and training centers, have been experienced by both of us. I don't think the 1/3rd rule (not sure where u got the 2/3rds) is indicative of the work units but rather makes a statement as to the work force. A work force, in which a portion assumes to have the ability to question materials and methods, may say more as to the problem than the quality or the honestly of the employers.
I am no fan of NO, but results given must be one of the determining factors as to their success. Parents would not send their children there to prepare for the IELTS, if the the results warranted advice given by an FT.
Your passion for these kinds of threads often induce volley after volley of post and as I have no more to offer than my opinion, I gracefully bow out of this thread, having said my piece. Best of luck with your school and perhaps you can ask other FTs on this board how to counter advice given by Chinese teachers who have less than the required years to direct your efforts. |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| In Beijing, recently and due to the visa problems encountered by many foreigners, NO has offered teaching position to those who are not inclined or not motivated to be teachers and find employment in this company as a stop gap measure. |
Why would motivated teachers have a greater problem obtaining a visa?
Yet you hear on this board and other places of many teachers with experience here in CHina looking for jobs in Beijing only to find they can't compete with the low wages schools like NO want to offer, not that they don't want to work in Beijing. I have been here all summer, on Dave's all summer. This has often been heard.
Haven't once heard a teacher say, I have experience, and I have a good paying job lined up, but I can't make it to Beijing because of visa problems. I guess hte unmotivated teachers are just better at knowing how to get a visa
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| Parents would not send their children there to prepare for the IELTS, if |
I have seen parents spend huge amounts of money with no dramatic results in improved english (though the parents will usually still find a middleman to get the kid in some kind of school overseas...) again, at my school, 50,000 for 24 weeks
Previous school I worked at part-time, 35,000 one year, half of the students didn't even bother coming to classes
TIC |
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