Job Discussion Forums

[englishgibson]

sorry that i can't help you on this, but welcome to china

cheers and beers to our students as well as our salaries that allow us to buy enough guinness, and never mind the goal that we've come to achieve

_____________________________________________________________
put a smile on the face of your student

[Optimist]

Hey Loboman

Perhaps welding is your thing rather than teaching business.

It has been a while since your first post about your problems. I would be a little worried about what has been happening to your students during this time TAFE courses are generally pretty intensive with little spare time.

Have you tried developing lessons that match the learning outcomes in the syllabus using material from the web? Have you asked the DOS to check whether they are on target? Perhaps if you posted an example of one of the learning outcomes and the lesson you prepared for that learning outcome someone at Dave's could give you some advice.

Perhaps a career change is on the cards? Many of us get burned out and need a rest. Others bite off more than they can chew and need to consider the impact their teaching is having on their students.

I find the old saying "Those that can - do. Those that can't - teach" a little annoying. I would like to add "Those that can't teach - shouldn't".

Can I copyright that or has someone already said it

[mikefriend]

I just started working for tafe this week. After doing some research on daves and a few other forums I can state that I have the same issue as the op.

I am teaching business at a tafe licensed school. This is the first week.

There are absolutely no teaching materials given to me as a teacher except for a badly copied "book" about the subject. That and a syllabus.

There are no local tafe people just the Chinese staff members who run the program. They are of little value or help and highly myopic in the ways.

This is my first time teaching for tafe and I am not sure who is to blame but this program is of very low quality.

I read some posts on this forum about contacting tafe etc, as a new teacher I don't think that is my job to stir up a hornets nest. I came here just to teach business and I just can't believe that a Western run program can be run in such a shoddy way.

If tafe does have any standards as to the level of educational quality present they are lacking in this tafe run program.

[lf_aristotle69]

T.A.F.E. = Technical and Further Education = An accredited training provider in Australia. They offer hobby, technical/trades, and post high school/pre university level training. Certificates, Diplomas and Advanced Diplomas.

Loboman and mikefriend, I doubt you guys actually "work for TAFE" at all. Certainly Loboman doesn't. You would have been hired by them directly if so.

Sometimes the business relationships between foreign and Chinese partners is obscure. But, there's been some good advice to contact the particular TAFE College that is the partner for your course and find out if they can help you in any way.

I dare say their contract with the Chinese institution states that the Chinese institution hires and contracts suitable teachers to teach a TAFE equivalent Certificate, Diploma, or Advanced Diplome course in Englis or Business or Computing or whatever it is the students happen to be studying at your institution...

Loboman, you need to understand that a degree means a Bachelor, Master, or Doctor degree. these are not what you are dealing with. As other have suggested TAFE qualifications are below (Bachelor) degree level, but some subjects can be credited at University level.

Loboman, you said your students were "senior" level. Is that Senior 4 (i.e. the American university "Senior" meaning 4th year student) at university, or Senior 3 at High School?

My 16 y.o. nephew is studying TAFE Diploma subjects in his Grade 11 and 12 at high school that will enable him to matriculate into 2nd year university in his discipline, Computer Games Programming...

The best advice, that may or may not bear fruit, is to contact the TAFE College with which your Chinese institution is partnered and see who at TAFE is in charge of their part of the program. They may or may not fill you in or help you. In fact, it's possibly another Australian College level institution, i.e. not only TAFE can provide these qualifications... even though they may be generically called "TAFE courses".

How many hours a week do you have with each individual class of students? How many different classes of students do you have? Are they all at the same stage of their Chinese "degree" studies? i.e. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th year aka Freshman, Sophomore, Junior, Senior...

BTW, are you making big bucks? If TAFE are paying the bills then you should be making A$1200+/WEEK! Unfortunately the value of that in RMB just dropped by about 30% 3 or 4 weeks ago...

Good luck,

LFA

[eslstudies]

I worked at a Shanghai university for 3 years which offered technical and trade based courses in association with Box Hill College of TAFE. Most of the modules were taught in 6 week blocks by visiting Box Hill teachers, others by the university's own teachers who'd been trained and accredited in Australia by TAFE. I taught preparatory English, but was employed and paid by the university. Visiting teachers got their Australian salary, full accommodation and a $130 per diem.
The previous posters who claim to be working for TAFE are not employed by TAFE, but their Chinese school, which is where their complaints should be directed.

The graduates from those courses mentioned above were awarded TAFE diplomas, which gave them automatic entry to certain courses at certain Australian universities. I was only aware of a few who actually took this option, but they were certainly better prepared than the majority who buy their way into low-level "International Business" type courses, specifically created for those students.

And let's not forget the real reason Chinese students study OS. It's for the visa that can come after graduation, and then bringing the family over. Very few return to live and work in China.

[englishgibson]

yeah..i'd love to know the number of chinese students coming back after their graduation abroad..i guess, we'll never know that, will we?

good point with our students' intentions of not coming back..that's something that worries me..i keep on tellin'em the reasons behind my stay in china and that i'll feel a great sense of accomplishement if they come back and change this country to better..then, my lil boy born in china will also benefit too...what a fool i might be in my classrooms

TAFE sure looks like foreign in china, although spiced up with chinese values

needless to say that the tendency of chinese educational institutions using western names is just unbelievable

cheers and beers to the chinse parents that really know what to do with their lovely pumpkins

[lf_aristotle69]

[chalkface]

"Visiting teachers got their Australian salary, full accommodation and a $130 per diem."

eslstudies,

I'm in Aust. now and thinking about accepting a TAFE position (Cert. Eng.) in China. What's the standard deal offered (market rate)? Can you be more specific about salary and benefits, please?

Thanks

[eslstudies]

Hi Chalkface. The teachers I mentioned were full time permanent employees of TAFE. At a guess, the type of deal being offered to you won't be anywhere near so generous. They were on their normal Australian salary, plus the per diem which was, however, taxed at their marginal rate.

[clarrie]

[lf_aristotle69]

As others have said, TAFE teachers are expected to use their knowledge and experience to construct their own course based on the syllabus and with assessments that progressively test each specified competency.

Probably best to do the latter in small steps with mostly minor in-class (or homework) tasks and small assignments plus a few major assignments to combine some of the competencies, ticking off boxes as you go.

Of course, all of this is a lot of work if you're on an average Chinese salary (7000-10000rmb/month + free accommodation). Depending on the resources available at the Chinese school, and depending on how many unique teaching hours I had a week (i.e am I repeating the same 4-10 hours of unique weekly content to 2, 3 or 4 class groups each week, or do I have 20 unique hours of content with only one class... bummer!), I'd probably want to be on at least double that to make the time commitment worthwhile. i.e. a minimum of 14000 (before tax) + free accommodation, etc. That's a bit less than half of what a real TAFE teacher would be on (before tax, and actually now the A$ has dropped it's probably improved the Chinese salary ratio... so maybe you're not so badly off after all).

But, you need to clarify if you're really teaching TAFE subjects, or just a pseudo-TAFE subject preparation/bridging course. If the former your subjects will count directly towards the students acquisition of a real TAFE Certificate/Diploma.

If the school has other "real" TAFE teachers there teaching real TAFE subjects (are they only there for one or two weeks at a time, or 10-13 weeks?), why are you there...? Probably you're there to teach a bridging course. I don't know why you wouldn't have been told that openly... but this is China. People play their cards close to their chest, and yet cheat quite openly sometimes, and people/schools often try to get more for their money than they're paying you for...

That's why you have to ask ALL the questions before you sign any contract here. Be suspicious!

LFA

[mikefriend]

I asked a friend of mine who is a real tafe employee and Australian what kind of degree my students get here.

They get some kind of certificate from tafe - not a real college degree from tafe, but they do get one from the school.

I was hired by the school, thus I am not a real tafe employee. I work in the business program and all the other "teachers" who are giving classes in tafe are Chinese. They are new teachers, have no experience as being just out of school themselves and basically read from the book to the students. I can't imagine that these classes meet tafe standards. They are teaching business classes.

The dos is Chinese as well as has no experience. He is new to this position and before him was the Australian guy I mentioned. The dos has no idea about anything and I minimize my interaction with because he has no idea how to speak with me.

Like the original poster there is no material for these classes. My students were given "books" for their classes except these were not real books. They were copies from real Mcgraw Hill books and printed by the school with the tafe logo.

If tafe saw these I am sure they would not condone pirated material being used with their logo in a classroom setting. But, that's not my call. The books have no use to me and I basicaly told the students that these books were garbage - poorly copied garbage.

Imagine teaching a business ethics course with a stolen plagiarized local produced book? Ha!

[lf_aristotle69]

C'mon Mike! It shouldn't, but it is, irking me that you continue to misuse the term "degree" to mean 'qualification'. Half a dozen people have already concurred that you are teaching a Certificate level, or perhaps Diploma level, qualification course. NOT a university degree level course.

What's your own education background? What qualification/s do you possess? Of course, you don't have to answer. I guess there are gaps in everyone's knowledge. Mine too... so, correct me if there are faults below, as it's been a few years since I was in the system...

QUALIFICATIONS
High School - Certificate (I think Americans call it a Diploma...)
Post secondary College - Certificate/Associate Diploma/Diploma/Advanced Diploma
University - Undergraduate - Bachelor degree
University - Postgraduate - Post-graduate Diploma/Masters degree/PhD
University - Postdoctoral - ???

Anyway, back to the thread issues.

I presume your students study for 4 years in China for a Chinese Bachelor degree (or possibly just a Chinese 3/4 year Diploma, depending on what they're licensed to award), and at the same time they study for a TAFE Certificate level qualification. It's a bottom rung way to enter a foreign (Australian) university Bachelor degree program. It might mean they don't need to do an IELTS test as well...

I could be wrong about that, but since you (or was it someone else???) said that you're teaching Senior grade students at university, they wouldn't have time to do more Australian studies in China.

The program I'm on now (which is not a TAFE program) is an Academic English (EAP) bridging course, similar to a TAFE CSWE IV type program, which is conducted in my students' 2nd year of their 4 year course. It's all studied in China, and after 4 years they'll get a Chinese Bachelor degree and an Australian Bachelor degree. A great deal for the students obviously.

The Aussie partner university accepts that a pass on my course (organised by an independent Aussie Business and ESL training College) is a sufficient entry standard (i.e. equivalent to an IELTS 6.0/6.5) to their Bachelor degree course. During the semester that my course runs I have the students for 12 hours (x2 classes = 24 hours) a week. It's about 40% of their total study load, so it's taken fairly seriously, I think.

The Chinese and Aussie degree studies are a completely separate part of the program from what I'm doing. They're not involved in mine, and I'm not involved in theirs. During the same time as my course runs the students also take "College English" classes with Chinese teachers. For the degree studies, which the students have also begun (yes, it's a bit presumptuous), Chinese teachers (supposedly) teach the Aussie subjects in English for most of the semester, and also a selection of agreed subjects in Chinese (which are fully or partially credited towards the Aussie degree). Aussie uni lecturers visit for a 1-2 week block of lectures and assessment each semester too.

My example is only one of a multitude of scenarios.

There are also: 1 + 3, 2 + 2, 3 + 1, 2 + 3, etc. The first number being the number of years studied in China, with Chinese university subjects, and some foreign subjects in some programs, and the latter number being the number of years studied abroad in order to obtain a foreign University degree. Maybe yours is a 3/4 + 2???

LFA

[chalkface]

[arioch36]

America .. High school is called adiploma

Accredited Community Colleges (2 yrs.) are usually called AAS (Associate ARTS and Science) degree, only because the colleges go through the same accredidation process. Of course the 2 yr degree is totally worthles in of itself, but if your marks are okay (at least a C) most university will accept many of these credits. However a BS degree is a degree. An AS is a 2yr "degree"

I spent two years (Okay, more like 5 years) at a community colege because they specialize in night courses. Also the tuition is much cheaper. My test scores were high, so I was accepted into better schools, but only had two do 2 years when I transferred saving about $30,000

Also like TAFE, maybe, the LAW??? the regulations are such that the community colege accepts almost anyone, though if you score are too low, you enter a special course before starting your two year degree. Community colleges also regurally offer courses like basket weaving for fun, and certificates in Automotive technology (fixing cars) etc.