Job Discussion Forums

[englishgibson]

I have recently been told by a few high school dropouts in China that it is possible for them to get into western unis.

As worrying as it is for me since I teach a program that prepares Chinese high school grads for western unis, I would like to know from anyone who knows it actually is possible.

Cheers and beers to our forums

[brsmith15]

I could be dead wrong, but few 4-year accredited universities would accept those folks unless there were very unique extenuating circumstances -- like, say, a yuong person from Sichuan province whose school was destroyed in the recent earthquake or someone who lost their parents. Their grades would have to be outstanding, tho.

Schools without entrance requirements, like community colleges might, however. When I taught at Vermont CC, I had one such student, a very bright young lady from BJ.

[Voldermort]

englishgibson, I teach in a position very much similar to yourself except that I teach an international class within a public highschool. Not all of my students will go to a foreign university but if that's what a student wants then we have the resources in place to make it happen.

Over the years I have come across a number of grade 1 highschoolers who have done just that. Not quite drop-out, but just as close.

The truth is, just about anybody may study abroad provided they meet certain requirments. This has very little to do with their grades but more about money and the type and length of employment of their parents. Now at this age it is almost impossible to study in a foreign university, and this is where Chinese students get confused. First they would have to enter a 3-6 month IELTS/TOEFL program. I deal mainly with IELTS and I know the students are required to score band 4.5. From here they would enter what we Brits call 6th form college where they would gain the grades to enter a university. In Britain this would be the A-levels. Also, while doing this course they would have to further their English level to whatever the uni requires of them, usually band 5.5 IELTS.

So it is possible to study abroad, but not in a "university" strictly speaking.

[Mpho]

Not only is it likely and possible, it is frequently done. Many students drop out of hs to work, later they do the self-study GED (Chinese version) and many go on and do the self-study college degree and then go to the US and apply to college either with or without their SAT.

And many community colleges will accept international students without a degree if they can pass the English and math placement tests. Others admit them as "adult" students if they are older than 30-35 with restrictions. (They must maintain a C average in all courses.) They even go so far as to limit them to 6 hours per term.

I have even seen some four-year public colleges that admit students as adults without SAT or ACT scores.

I have been very interested in this topic, since my wife has gone the GED and self-study college diploma route in China and as soon as we get her visa she will go the AA to BA route in the US. She dropped out due to a severe illness which forced her to miss a year of school. They wouldn't readmit her since her class had graduated.

Mpho

[cj750nomad]

[therock]

Western Universities are after the $$$$. International students pay two to three times more to study than a local student. The uni doesn't care if the student has got the required education level as long as they have the money.

[eslstudies]

I work at the Western end of this process, in Australia.
as noted previously, many of these students come in to bridging [ELICOS] programs, and so are not in university courses, even though many of the programs are university run. They then need to get a certain IELTS score, depending on institution and course. In my experience, these people were sincere and hard working, even though not always capable of getting there.

The most recent scheme involves parents sending their kids at age 16/17 to do their final 2 high school years, in Oz in this case. They don't need a score. Just a competent agent who can find them a school and a visa. I can tell you more if interested.

[william wallace]

"A Levels" or Z levels, a Band 4.5 is shi.te....possibly they're ABC levels,eh?

[Neilhrd]

Students drop out of Chinese high schools for a variety of reasons.

Some are just plain thick or lazy, of course. If they are poor they will probably spend the rest of their lives peddling a rubbish cart or flipping burgers. But if they have rich parents sending them abroad is a face saving device. That explains some of the dead heads that university preparation programmes like GAC get.

However there are others who quit Chinese high schools because they can't take the inhuman pressure to memorise mindless text books. For them western teaching methods sometimes come as a breath of fresh air.

Despite the weaknesses, which I have discussed elsewhere, the great strength of the GAC programme I teach is that it encourages students to recognise their own learning style, mature and take responsibility for their own learning, deepen their personality and express their own opinions.

It gives me deep satisfaction to watch students who have been written off by the Chinese system as misfits get a second chance with GAC, take it enthusisastically and fulfil their potential.

Another group drop out for personal, financial or family reasons. Such students usually deserve sympathy and in Britain they get a second chance by going to Further Education Colleges to make up qualifications they missed and then on to university as mature students if they are good enough. China is only just beginning to develop a structure for lifelong learning of this kind. I hope it accelerates the process as it will need to do to keep its skillbase competitive in the world market. I would like to see GAC and other university preparation programmes opened up to mature students as well as high school leavers as part of this process.

[PattyFlipper]

Overseas students at some of the less-than-stellar British universities comprise 30% or more of the student body, a significant proportion of whom are mainland Chinese. Bums on seats is nowadays the name of the game, and foreigners pay considerably higher tuition fees than UK nationals. Of course, the universities are supposed to have minimum entry criteria, but these can to a large extent be determined by the individual institutions themselves. I would wager that the recent scandals at Newcastle University (not on the less-than-stellar list) and other places regarding forgery and submission of fraudulent qualifications by Chinese students is only the tip of the iceberg. I wonder how rigourously Mainland credentials are scrutinized by universities, and how and by whom this scrutiny is carried out. Checking qualifications at a distance is never a simple task (try verifying the award of a UK degree, for example, let alone checking GCSE and 'A' level results), and any involvement in the process by Chinese agents or representatives is wide open to ...er... manipulation.

[englishgibson]

some nice posts on. i see it's not only me who's got such experience with those youngsters out of their educational system hoping for another.

there're surely some fine 16/17 year olds in china, but isn't that called cutting the corners when they fill in westen uni applications and attempt to directly join courses there?

the GAC program in china is designed for students to join western unis and their BA programs as far as i know. that means the program is not meant for the dropouts to make up for what they've lost or haven't accomplished.

having said all that and having read all your posts above, one question comes to my mind now and that is; could my four months old boy join the GAC program and a western uni, if he spoke some english??? i've got some money stashed under a tree (won't tell you which one though).

cheers and beers to all

[eddy-cool]

Whatever the reasons for their dropping out of Chinese high schools - being overworked by their school? - why do they then continue their career as 'students', albeit at a foreign university? Surely it should dawn upon them that studying abroad is in many ways more daunting than studying in China?

So going abroad is the choice of those with ulterior motives that have nothing to do with higher education!

Just read that the U.S. of A. has admitted a RECORD NUMBER OF ASIAN, i.e. Chinese, students as of this year.

This has been interpreted as meaning that the hitherto insuperable visa hurdles for Chinese students wishing to study overseas have been removed or lowered...

Why are these people (from U.S. education circles) so proud for this? Surely they should realise that they are getting second or third choice students? Well, even these students pay fat tuition fees...

[eddy-cool]

The recent expulsion of 50 Chinese students from Newcastle University comes to mind...

[eslstudies]

[quote="eddy-cool"]

So going abroad is the choice of those with ulterior motives that have nothing to do with higher education!
quote]

No surprises here. In fact, most are quite upfront about their motivation: getting an OS qualification which makes them employable, especially in an in-demand field, will get them a visa which will improve their chances of permanent residency, which then means they can sponsor the family as migrants!
It's all legal, and no more "ulterior" [probably less so in fact] than Westerners posing as teachers to enjoy a lifestyle they couldn't aspire to back home.

[malu]