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TokyoLiz
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1548
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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 Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:44 am Post subject: |
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Sometimes Japanese people are simply being humble when they say the kids aren't great. But sometimes it's defeatist and pathological.
AETs can get a lot of negative energy from that.
Fight the evil, da m n it! |
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prlester
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Posts: 92
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| User N. Ame wrote: |
| Nagoyaguy wrote: |
We have to remember that the JET Programme, and the use of ALTs in general, are quite different.
JET was not intended as a language teaching programme. It was designed for PR. The idea was for young college educated foreigners to come to Japan, enjoy the country for up to 3 years, and then GO HOME. Once home, and in the future, their JET experience would cause them to favor Japan, giver preference to Japanese points of view, etc. Basically, a long term PR device. |
This is a very interesting point, and one that tends to get overlooked. You are quite right that PR (or, a less polite way of putting it: propaganda) was integral to JET's initial mandate. The historical context is equally important. JET was established at the height of Japan's economic domination and boom years. The real questions and concerns about English communication didn't really start to get asked until after the bubble burst, when politicians realized that English may be more important to their global place in the world market than first thought.
So yes, JET initially was (and still is to a large extent) about selling Japan abroad. Korea and other Asian countries seem to have placed greater emphasis on English communication (over PR or internationalization), and not surprisingly, test results (which I don't have on hand) seem to indicate Japan's Asian counterparts have more English literate populations. |
You're missing the point. Though JET is a teaching and exchange program. The exchange part is not chilling at temples, it's planning community events on the weekend, doing neighborhood classes and English teaching to older folk, etc (Something a private company would never bother with).
JETs have more job protection and wages, not because of an increase over the years, but that's what was paid to ALTs in the 1980s before the internet (JET has never had a raise, from what I gathered).
As a JET I planned all my classes, graded tests, did English club, participated in school events and tried to educate my students about the West. I did cut corners and could have put more time into my plans. Contrarily, the Japanese teachers, only use the comic book/text, very little presentation or interaction in English and are too obtuse to understand why that is not good teaching.
However, lack of planning isn't what the teachers disliked about me. They disliked the "Japanese" cultural norms I was weak on, such as proper posture, using the internet, as opposed to running errands or sitting at my desk like other Japanese. I also added a lot of historical and class themes to my lessons, as I am an amateur historian. Because Japanese have their own mindset, I'm sure other teachers were upset.
JET, as a vestigial 80s ESL job, has a gravy train aspect to it. But the alternative, dispatch ALTs would be worse, not only because of the lack of any worker rights, but also lower quality This is what would happen if JET was abolished, not some nirvana of quality teaching positions the poster dreams of. Incidentally, it is illegal for ALTs to teach alone, though in JET it happens all the time. One reason is the lack of qualifications, the other is the inherent racism of top level MoE employees. If one went a step further and destroyed all ALTs, only Japanese teachers would be employed.
From what I can gather, JET applicants can be very good or more interested in non-school pursuits. What draws the good applicants? JET is still perceived as prestigious enough, competitive enough (pages of applications, essays, embassy interview, recommendations, GPA is a factor) and has adequate remuneration to draw candidates who would otherwise enter business, professional school etc.
Dispatch companies have no way to supply a high quality applicant. Most people the original poster would deem poor applicants come to Japan for the fun it has to offer and this is has nothing to do with teaching or cash, the former never had anything to do with it, the latter hasn't for years.
The real crux of the matter is the original poster is angry at the relative luxury JET offers to the current deal of teaching. There are only a few university jobs with tenure that do better and those will not be reproduced when the first batch retires in a couple decades. Instead, of harping on the last good ESL job in Japan, one should focus on the real problem, the uni-dimensional teaching pedagogy in Japan, a culture unable to adapt quickly and the lack of any desire for permanent gaijin.
The deal in Japan is fast times, poor pay and no job security with the trap of being too old and inexperienced to return to the West, getting out when one can, or just put up with the low quality entertainment options in the Anglosphere. |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:46 am Post subject: |
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| User N. Ame wrote: |
| G Cthulhu wrote: |
| It's flamebait, so it's not terribly worthwhile elaborating. But, just to humour you, it was dissected heavily over on BigDaikon when it came out (as I suspect you well know already). |
G Cthu, I think we've had this dance before, and as I said before, citing BigDaikon as a source for worthy, scholarly commentary of any kind, much less that of an ALT nature, is not, I'm afraid to break it you, a citation that works in your favour.  It's sort of like saying a controversial article on cancer research, in the New England Journal of Medicine, was dissected heavily on a patient blog originating from a New York City psychiatric hospital.
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Ah, but there's the rub: I'm not suggesting it (BD) as scholarly comment. I'm simply saying that it has been dissected over there. Yes, the lunatics in the asylum have commented, but so have the doctors. (If you really want to play the stretch-the-metaphor-to-death game ) You do many of the posters over there a disservice - there are more than a few that are well qualified, experienced, and with a considerable number of years in Japan that are in a position to judge the merits of the article.
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| G Cthulhu wrote: |
| Essentially, he is missing the point: ALTs are *assistants*. It is not their *responsibility* to improve the levels of SL ability in Japan. If you want to blame someone then blame the people with the legal and educational responsibility: the JTLs and the Ministry. |
I think he hits the point right on the nail, and you almost suggest it yourself in a roundabout way. ALTs are mere assistants, if anything at all.
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This is where I think you're missing it. You, for the purposes of trolling, and he, for the purposes of making an argument and getting paid (aka academic/tenured trolling), are both ignoring the point that JET does not exist (or I should say has not existed, these days) to provide teachers. Even the article author states that JET *has* been successful in it's goal of internationalization. Go back and re-read the goals of the program. It's not teaching. Teaching is the medium by which the majority (lets not forget the CIRs and SEAs here because their existence is important to the argument originally presented) of JETs attempt to deliver on that goals.
Could JET do better and have avoided hiring the pissheads and tourists? Sure. Do the people doing the hiring tend to be untrained in HR and/or teaching? Yes. But I'd argue my point again: that's not the fault of the JETs themselves.
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And their role varies widely from classroom to classroom, because there is no clear, firmly established job description, or one that JTEs see as practical or useful. As such, many ALTs simply get put out to pasture. Do you not think that this is a gross waste of taxpayer yen? If you agree that it is, then you are more in agreement than you may care to admit. But I know you have a soft spot for JET, asssisting the programme with interviews and whatnot, so I appreciate that you may not be the most impartial observer in this discussion.  |
I'm certainly not impartial and would never claim to be. But I can still see a fit up job in the original article and trolling by posting it here. If you want to discuss the hiring and work process in detail then feel free (& then you'll probably be able to get me on impartiality) |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| GambateBingBangBOOM wrote: |
| Nismo wrote: |
| I'd be willing to bet that if the ALT was not in the classroom, the class would be conducted entirely in Japanese. |
I'd also be willing to bet that without JETs the English level of the JTEs- especially in rural areas would be much much lower than it is- and that that is the unspoken reason why the JET program continues (to improve the communicative ability of the JTEs).
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If we're accepting anecdotal evidence then I'd say the comparison between JTE's in 1991-1993 when I was first in Japan and 2000-2003 when I was next in Japan on JET is marked: *all* of the JTEs that I worked with had fluency in English - all in the technical sense of fluency and all but one in the vernacular. |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 2:06 am Post subject: |
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| User N. Ame wrote: |
Aside from the it's about internationalization, not English teaching arguments, one of the other arguments commonly heard among JET prononents is that they have to keep the requirements open and relatively lax, because there aren't enough qualified teachers abroad willing to come to Japan and fill all the ALT spaces. Well, NET has a far more strict application requirements, and they have no trouble filling their public school NET positions every year.
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Spurious argument. NET is filling, what, ~120 positions? JET is filling 5000+. NET is specifically about English and technology instruction. JET is specifically *not* about just those things.
Similarly, it's no use comparing "internationalization" in the Japanese context with the idea of the same thing in Hong Kong: anyone that thinks HK and Japan were similar in terms of international outlook among the general population in the late 1980's is seriously out of touch and/or guilty of misrepresentation. It's simply not a valid point.
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I see no reason why JET couldn't do the same. JET doesn't have to do it all in one swoop. Even implementing a NET-like strategy over a 5-10 year plan would at least be on a progressive, rather than stagnant track. Unless of course, the Japanese government wants to remain mired in the financial black hole that is internationalization.
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You should be happy then because that is almost exactly what JET has been doing for the last 2-4 years. But hey, for all the people appalled at the cost, you should also be happy because JET numbers are dropping. Non-JET ALT numbers are going up. And guess what: surveys indicate they're worse ALTs than the JET ALTs. You really do get what you pay for, I guess. |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 2:12 am Post subject: Re: Bull dada the kids are unimaginative! |
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| fluffyhamster wrote: |
| TokyoLiz wrote: |
| JTEs often say their students are weak or stupid. This is a feature of Japanese culture that can become pathological with teachers believing the kids are weak and stupid. When it becomes pathological, it becomes an excuse for weak instruction. |
Then there are quite a few AETs who seem to (come to) think this way, too. |
It's the ones that wax lyrical & "knowingly" about the faults in Japanese education within three months of arriving in Japan that I want to take out and shoot. |
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GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:04 am Post subject: |
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G Cthulhu (and prlester),
You do know that you are responding to comments posted over a year ago, right? |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| GambateBingBangBOOM wrote: |
G Cthulhu (and prlester),
You do know that you are responding to comments posted over a year ago, right? |
I've only just got around to it. |
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prlester
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Posts: 92
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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ditto that.
What really bothers me about this whole harping on JET thing is, why don't the foreigners just get out as the vast majority do.
Japan is a cool place to rock for a few years, but the institutional barriers are too big for the long haul, which is what the snuddy OP seems to be coming from.
I haven't been in JET since 04. How has it changed? |
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flyer
Joined: 16 May 2003
Posts: 539
Location: Sapporo Japan
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:46 am Post subject: |
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| prlester wrote: |
ditto that.
What really bothers me about this whole harping on JET thing is, why don't the foreigners just get out as the vast majority do.
Japan is a cool place to rock for a few years, but the institutional barriers are too big for the long haul, which is what the snuddy OP seems to be coming from.
I haven't been in JET since 04. How has it changed? |
I agree with most of what you said but not the part about just for a few years. What the problem with staying more than a few years?
Just look at the news there are big job security problems and unemployment everywhere!
This job (like any job) is not for everyone, as everyone is different.
But that doesn't mean that for quite a few people they can do the JET thing or similar for years and years.
I think JET is a good thing but not everyone on both sides pull their wieght. Some JETS are slack and some people on the J side are slack at using their JETs. |
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ripslyme
Joined: 29 Jan 2005
Posts: 481
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:50 am Post subject: |
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| I think JET is good for internationalization but bad for English education. |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:33 am Post subject: |
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I think JET is good for internationalization but bad for English education.
And what is internationalization?
I love it whenever people tell me they want to be 'international person'.
Does that mean you're constantly flying to all your passport countries  ? Or does it mean you're stateless  ? |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| Better English language education would of course help improve the average Japanese person's efforts at internationalization, but try telling "the Japanese" that. |
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