Job Discussion Forums

Marcoregano · Joined: 19 May 2003 Posts: 872 Location: Hong Kong

As previously mentioned, I don't like grammar stuff. This one bugs me:

In sentence 1:

"Mrs P reminded us to vote for her", "us" is a direct object and I guess "her" is an indirect object?

However, in sentence 2:

"Mrs P suggested that we should vote for her", my book says "we" is not a direct object, but doesn't tell me what "we" is. Is it an object, or a subject? And then, if "we" is an (indirect) object what is "her" in the second sentence?

Thanks for any help. Abuse isn't necessary....I know I'm lousy at this stuff, despite 3 degrees and a teaching cert!

Dr.J · Joined: 09 May 2003 Posts: 304 Location: usually Japan

"direct object" means that the thing is the 'target' or 'victim' of the verb.

In the first sentence 'us' was 'reminded' so it's the direct object.

In the second sentence, the verb 'suggest', has no specified object. We don't know who was 'targeted' by her suggestion.

The "we" is best seen as part of the chunk: "we should vote for her"

Mrs.P / suggested / that / we should vote for her.

So, the "we" in this sentence can be seen as part of the embedded idea "we should vote for her", in which case it is the subject of this clause.

usual disclaimers apply

scot47 · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343

You don't kow about subject-object ? And you are teaching English ?

Ever thought of taking up driving a bus or bartending ?

Slim Pickens · Joined: 25 Nov 2003 Posts: 299

Marcoregano · Joined: 19 May 2003 Posts: 872 Location: Hong Kong

Thanks Slim....my sentiments entirely. How disappointingly predictable of scot47.

Scott in HK · Joined: 11 Jan 2003 Posts: 148

I too can say that I am not that great at grammar. And I too have a number of degrees and a teaching cert.

I think I know why I am not that great at grammar...I haven't had one lesson since I left grade eight. Nothing was taught in high school, nothing the first time I to university or either of my returns...and they certainly aren't teaching me grammar during my M'Ed.

Everyone just expected that you would learn it on your own. And I have..bit by bit as I needed it. Questions from students sent me to grammar books to find out answers. My knowledge base continues to grow...but I still send out my essays to be proofread.

Grammar has never been a big part of my teaching. Either because the curriuculum I was followingn didn't stress it...or the courses I was teaching centred on somethings else.

I don't need anyone to point out that my grammar teaching knowledge needs help...and I think when you ask for help you should get it without any snide remarks.

BUT...if you do take the time to pass on useless snide comments...take an extra second to make them more logical...if you want to infer that someone should know the specialized knowledge that their job entails...I am not so sure you should direct your target to take up jobs that also need some specialize knowledge....it is not like anyone can just jump on a bus and take for a spin...and to be a good bartender...well....they just say it is more than cracking the tops off bottles of beer...

scot47 · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343

But for EFL you do not need any special skills or training ? Don't you think some basic knowledge of Grammar might help if you are teaching English ?

Or can any native speaker just walk in and start ?

shmooj · Joined: 11 Sep 2003 Posts: 1758 Location: Seoul, ROK

Notice how scant scot's answer to the aforementioned grammar problem was Wink

shmooj · Joined: 11 Sep 2003 Posts: 1758 Location: Seoul, ROK

scot47 · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343

Maybe I feel that this is not the forum in which to teach beginners about parsing !

This is hardly university-level linguistics !

ls650 · Joined: 10 May 2003 Posts: 3484 Location: British Columbia

shmooj · Joined: 11 Sep 2003 Posts: 1758 Location: Seoul, ROK

scot47 · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343

In Grade 7 I went through hell learning about parsing. There is no royal road. If you have to learn about this, buy a BOOK for God's sake. You remember them ?

shmooj · Joined: 11 Sep 2003 Posts: 1758 Location: Seoul, ROK

Yeah we know about books. But what is the point of being on this forum if, when someone asks a question, you refer them to a book?

Perhaps, as you've been through hell at school, you'd rather not talk about it Wink

I can understand that...

Marcoregano · Joined: 19 May 2003 Posts: 872 Location: Hong Kong

Ha ha ha! Mr 47, what a cantankerous, acerbic clown you appear to be. I feel so heartily sorry for your poor students. Doubtless you berate them at every opportunity for failing to reach your highly particular standards.

What do you hope to achieve by abusing people who post academic questions - at whatever level - on this forum? I can see no positive outcome. If you feel that the question is beneath your oh-so-erudite level then why don't you just move on to one that equates. Better still, why don't you simply *beep* off and waste your own time rather than ours.

Now to deal with some of the bile you have thrown either directly or indirectly in my direction....I see no cause for shame in having queries regarding some grammar issues, however obvious they may seem to some. As Scott in HK pointed out, it is not uncommon for native English speakers to have achieved a high level in academia without having devoted a great deal of time to grammar. I have two masters degrees, one of which is in TESOL.

Nor, for that matter, is it particularly necessary for the EFL teacher to have a 'Johnsonesque' grasp of grammar detail. It depends what level you teach and who you teach and how you like to teach. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Mr 47 is clearly an advocate of the archaic grammar-flogging technique.

In my teaching experience, with about ten years of EFL teaching including the University of Economics in Prague, private schools in the UK, teacher-training and secondary schools in Korea and now teaching adults for HK university's adult-education programme, I rarely receive complex grammar questions, and those grammar-related questions I do get I can usually deal with. If I can't, then like any good teacher should I go away, study it, and answer the question in the next lesson.

Sometimes I find some points of grammar confusing, and it's a fair bet that if these points are confusing for me, then they will also be confusing for some of my students. So, I try to get my head around such matters thoroughly, either by using a grammar text (yes, I do use a grammar text - Swan - but he doesn't always supply the answers adequately) or by trying to engage in some useful discussion about them through this forum. It helps immensely to read the dissections of other posters and see it from their perspective. What doesn't help is wasting time with the likes of the diminutive and doubtless repressed scot47....Yes, anytime mate! Back of Murrayfield after today's game? Or is it Twickenham? Wherever...you lose...

Anyways, enough of this. Thanks for the posts which helped my original query. Getting back to that...

"reminded" and "suggested" are both reporting verbs, but with reporting verbs like "reminded" the hearer is always the direct object - so my book tells me. What I find a little confusing that "we" in the second sentence still looks a bit like a direct object (to me at least), and I can imagine my students maybe saying "OK, so what is it then?". The answer is "a subject" I suppose. Clear as mud to me, and probably to many of them, but then....maybe not. No, really it is getting clearer....