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Cohen
Joined: 30 Dec 2008
Posts: 91
Location: Hong Kong
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 Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:30 am Post subject: |
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| IT2006 wrote: |
| Okay, so let's say I do the demographics for a business plan which allows (or dictates) that I charge 250,000RMB per student per year. That means that my market consists of families of 1,000,000-2000,000 rmb per year. |
IT, most high school fees (and debentures) are paid for by the employer, typically a corporation. RMB250,000 a year is peanuts for a multi-national. Take a look at this document, prepared by the American Chamber of Commerce here in HK:
http://www.amcham.org.hk/pr/International%20Schools%20Study.pdf
Take a look at the two final pages (which list the cost of a debenture, both private and corporate). Note that the Chinese International School has a corporate debenture of some HK$1,800,000 per student! That is, if you work for a firm and you get a posting to HK then your firm will pay for your child (or children) to attend this school, and they will take care of the debenture.
Then take a look at the following:
http://www.esf.edu.hk/index.aspx?nodeid=92&langno=1
And note that salaries for teachers climb to some HK$591,780 per year. That is from fees of just HK$8,000 per month per child. There are also additional allowances, including a cash allowance of HK$7,000 a month. You only need a BEd or a PGCE for posts at ESF, and they are advertising some 69 posts for the next academic year, so such jobs are not as unobtainable as some seem to think.
It does not matter what business plan you construct, as you are most likely not able to begin an international IB school. |
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IT2006
Joined: 17 Jan 2009
Posts: 91
Location: Wichita, KS, and westward.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:59 am Post subject: |
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Geez. What kind of people frequent this forum?
As my friend from New Zealand liked to say, "You guys are 'avin' giraffes left and right."
Ta ta! |
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Pelican_Wrath
Joined: 19 May 2008
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:59 am Post subject: |
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No, it is you who are incapable of making a distinction between bog-standard language schools or Chinese government 'public schools' in China, and rather elite International Schools catering to the children of diplomats, engineers, and so on.
There's a German guy I met in Dalian managing a project. His salary is 70,000 RMB a month. A friend in Dalian knows a guy who works on ships, and that guy's salary makes the German's look like chickenfeed - IIRC it was about 220,000 RMB per month.
There's a whole world out there utterly alien to the average TEFLer, consisting of people earning money way higher than they would be earning in the West, and to them, they should be earning more than they earn back home, as China hasn't got much to offer them. |
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Cohen
Joined: 30 Dec 2008
Posts: 91
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| IT, can those giraffes you refer to read at all? If so then you might want to have them take a butcher's at some of the links you've been provided with. Or perhaps you are suggesting these institutions are lying, in writing, on their respective websites? |
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inchinanow
Joined: 03 Feb 2008
Posts: 102
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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There is a lot of discussion here about big-time salaries. But I think that such discussion is a little off the subject and unrealistic. I just wanted to know a fair and realistic salary for a Science Teacher in Beijing. I don't want to "lose face" by asking for an unreasonable amount. Let's keep it real!
I found this quote on another website:
There is a lot written about salaries, most of it ill-informed. There are also a lot false and misleading statements made in some Internet advertising. The truth of the matter is salaries in China are not comparable with Western salaries, but certainly allow you to live in reasonable comfort. The minimum salary payable to a foreign expert is 2,200 RMB per month, however, in reality very few teachers are paid a salary of less than 3,000 RMB. Higher salaries usually mean longer working hours, lower standard of accommodation or loss of some benefits.
http://www.china-tesol.com/Salary_Range_for_foreign_teach/salary_range_for_foreign_teach.html
Last edited by inchinanow on Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Pelican_Wrath
Joined: 19 May 2008
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| inchinanow wrote: |
| There is a lot of discussion here about big-time salaries. But I think that such discussion is a little off the subject and unrealistic. I just wanted to know a fair and realistic salary for a Science Teacher in Beijing. I don't want to "lose face" by asking for an unreasonable amount. Let's keep it real! |
OK: At a genuine International School in Beijing, I would expect a starting salary of about 30,000 RMB per month with about an 8000 RMB per month accommodation allowance on top of that, i..e about 38,000 in total.
At a cod-International School, where possibly the students are Chinese (and hence the fees are lower) but where the syllabus follows a western one in any other way (much like the Maple Leaf schools in Dalian) I would expect around 25,000 RMB per month.
At some other mickey mouse establishment requiring science teachers, probably more like 20,000 RMB a month. |
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waxwing
Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 719
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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inchina now,
Sorry, not directed at you personally, but I've just lost patience with this .. in 2 or 3 separate posts I went into minute detail about the realistic possibilities. I've probably written 3 times more than you have in this thread. For my attempts to help I've been accused of lying by 2 posters (wtf .. pretty bizarre), and meanwhile others go off on tangents (Cohen's info is very useful for some, but it's not relevant to you ... it's about HK .. he should have been much clearer about that).
Just a thought - if your original post had been 4 times as long, and included the relevant information about your circumstances, I'd bet this thread would have been 4 times shorter and would not have involved so much drivel... |
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Pelican_Wrath
Joined: 19 May 2008
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Cohen isn't only talking about HK, but also about the other very highly-paying institutions on the mainland of China, such as the British School of Shanghai. |
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Pelican_Wrath
Joined: 19 May 2008
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| inchinanow wrote: |
There is a lot of discussion here about big-time salaries. But I think that such discussion is a little off the subject and unrealistic. I just wanted to know a fair and realistic salary for a Science Teacher in Beijing. I don't want to "lose face" by asking for an unreasonable amount. Let's keep it real!
I found this quote on another website:
There is a lot written about salaries, most of it ill-informed. There are also a lot false and misleading statements made in some Internet advertising. The truth of the matter is salaries in China are not comparable with Western salaries, but certainly allow you to live in reasonable comfort. The minimum salary payable to a foreign expert is 2,200 RMB per month, however, in reality very few teachers are paid a salary of less than 3,000 RMB. Higher salaries usually mean longer working hours, lower standard of accommodation or loss of some benefits.
http://www.china-tesol.com/Salary_Range_for_foreign_teach/salary_range_for_foreign_teach.html |
Ah, and the good old website telling us that the average person earns 2000 RMB a month is dragged out!
The fact is, you can live well on 3000 RMB a month in China - but you have to eat NO western food, NEVER go to bars, NEVER go to the cinema, etc. |
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waxwing
Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 719
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| Pelican_Wrath wrote: |
| Cohen isn't only talking about HK, but also about the other very highly-paying institutions on the mainland of China, such as the British School of Shanghai. |
Interesting - I feel sure 30-40 is quite normal (and I think all of us in this thread who have a clue seem to have said that), especially if you include housing, but 50 is interesting, because it's so much higher than what you'd get doing the same job back home. I'm trying not to be swayed by the huge crash in the pound. But any way you slice it, whilst 30-35 would just look like a "good but not amazing" teacher salary back home, 50 would look very good indeed. I know that in the Middle East, for example, you can get effective salaries that are much higher than back home (when you account for the very different tax regime), but in China?
[It's an absolute given that such salaries exist in Hong Kong, so no need to discuss HK any further. ]
Anyway, that's why I surmised that numbers above 45 were not realistic unless you had considerable extra responsibilities, but I'm happy to be educated about this.
I have friends in Thailand, at least one of whom's a qualified science teacher like myself, and we spent a lot of time looking at the various International Schools around Bangkok. The situation was as you'd expect, and not quite as good of a market (from the teacher's perspective) as it is here in China. Very good, "kosher" ISs often offer about 4K USD per month but hiring is very competitive (too many people like being in Thailand  ). I could have found such a job in Thailand, with a little luck and effort, but I wasn't that interested because ultimately I prefer teaching A-level (16-1 not 11-18. And it's at least a bit better here because it's a better market, and there's a far greater supply of clients (parents with money to pay for the service).
But when you start talking about 7K USD + per month, that's way, way higher than Thailand, way higher than the UK (where living costs are much higher) and so on.
So, like everyone else, I find it difficult to give every detail of my opinion and what it's based on, but just as the "going rate" for an ESL-er with a Bachelor's is one thing, so similarly there is some kind of "going rate" for qualified teachers with experience. And 7K USD sounds too high. It's not like they would just get the dregs offering 5K, now is it?
To cut it short: does anyone actually know that subject teachers, who have no extra responsibilities, are not even Department Heads etc., can get more than 45K teaching in *any* school in China? Because by UK standards that's just mind-blowingly good, even in the most expensive part of Shanghai or wherever.
Personally I'm just grateful for my 28K job which I think is quite ample for living here and hope I can ride out this economic crisis without being turfed out onto the street (as I'm sure many will!).
You youngsters might be amused to learn what I earned in my first year of teaching in the UK back in 93/4: after the government took its share, I got just over 800 (prob. about $1200 in those days) in my monthly pay packet...
(err.. wow that was long. better shut up now) |
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IT2006
Joined: 17 Jan 2009
Posts: 91
Location: Wichita, KS, and westward.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Cohen wrote: |
IT2006, perhaps you haven't looked at the link provided by Pelican Wrath, but the answer to your main question is quite simple: you manage to pay your teachers (your 'investment', as it were) by charging hundreds of students (or rather, their parents, or rather, the parents' employers) up to RMB 211,755 a year. Do you really think anyone would pay such a sum for someone with a bog-standard degree, a TESOL certificate, and a backpack? When you are teaching classes of 21 students and they are all paying such a sum then of course you will get a fair share of the pie.
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I read it. I also did the math. I'm also aware that this outfit operates schools all over the world--- including the U.S.. I also know that their advertised tuition is negotiable and is usually negotiated downward, especially in this business climate.
D[b]o you really think anyone would pay such a sum for someone with a bog-standard degree, a TESOL certificate, and a backpack? When you are teaching classes of 21 students and they are all paying such a sum then of course you will get a fair share of the pie.
[/b]
And no, I don't think any such school would hire a backpacker-- and by backpacker I guess you mean someone who is not committed and has little or no education. Why would I think so? And why would YOU even think that anyone in his right mind would think so?
Nor do I think that such a school would hire someone who uses pedestrian language such as "bog standard". Such a school would take one look at the speaker's bog roll and tell him 'ta ta'. Right?
Define "fair share of the pie". I currently manage nine restaurants in the midwest U.S.. What an employee thinks is a "fair share of the pie" doesn't always meet practical business standards. However, since you have such great business acumen please enlighten all of us (from the comfort of your home in Cambridge) about how it's done.
Before you can even say it, I wouldn't consider teaching at those schools. Someone who is qualified to pull down that sort of money wouldn't go to China for employment. They'd be back home like you are (for some strange reason). |
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IT2006
Joined: 17 Jan 2009
Posts: 91
Location: Wichita, KS, and westward.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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So, like everyone else, I find it difficult to give every detail of my opinion and what it's based on, but just as the "going rate" for an ESL-er with a Bachelor's is one thing, so similarly there is some kind of "going rate" for qualified teachers with experience. And 7K USD sounds too high. It's not like they would just get the dregs offering 5K, now is it?
Unfortunately for those who can't qualify themselves or give corroborating info regarding their alleged incomes yet feel qualified to proclaim themselves competent to determine who is and who is not qualified, one cannot help but believe that what's being dished out here is little more than a cow patty.
The last time I was in China, it seemed that NO ONE in a Chinese position of authority was capable of determining who was qualified to teach. Five years later, I find it difficult to believe that much has changed and even more difficult to believe that many foreign teachers working in China are capable of the same. |
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Pelican_Wrath
Joined: 19 May 2008
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| IT2006 wrote: |
The last time I was in China, it seemed that NO ONE in a Chinese position of authority was capable of determining who was qualified to teach. Five years later, I find it difficult to believe that much has changed and even more difficult to believe that many foreign teachers working in China are capable of the same. |
For the last time, we are not talking about jobs in Chinese schools!
I agree with you about Chinese schools. The place I was at first, there were people like me with Degree plus CELTA< a couple who were fully qualified (B.Ed and experience) some who just had a Degree, and some who were just out of high school in the USA/Canada.
The girl with the full qualifications wasn't started on any more than any of the other teachers  |
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Cohen
Joined: 30 Dec 2008
Posts: 91
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| IT2006 wrote: |
| I also know that their advertised tuition is negotiable and is usually negotiated downward, especially in this business climate. |
I'm not going to bother anymore. Sorry, but now I think you're talking nonsense/trolling. The funny thing is that � even given the current 'business climate (God only knows how that is at all relevant to education � many international schools here in HK at least have increased their tuition fees. |
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changshaman
Joined: 30 Dec 2008
Posts: 36
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:05 am Post subject: |
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| IT2006 wrote: |
| Unfortunately for those who can't qualify themselves or give corroborating info |
One little school in Beijing who shows their salary for teachers and it is pretty good, not the best or worst but pretty good. It is good enough to make me want to use my certs. and look for one of these jobs. Of course these figures do not consider any of the benefits that make this an even better job.
Teacher's Compensation
WAB recruits teachers from both overseas as well as locally in Beijing, and offers remuneration that are highly competitive in the international market. The following table shows the Teacher�s Salary in school year 2009/2010.
Criteria Step Annual Net-of-Tax
Salary (RMB) Annual Gross Salary
(RMB) Annual Gross Salary
(US$1 = RMB 6.7)
Fewer than 2 years experience 1 279,214---326,285---US$ 48,699
After 2 years experience 2 287,222---338,150---US$ 50,470
After 3 years experience 3 296,686---350,654---US$ 52,336
After 4 years experience 4 304,395---360,840---US$ 53,857
After 5 years experience 5 312,598---371,678---US$ 55,474
After 6 years experience 6 324,389---387,257---US$ 57,800
After 7 years experience 7 336,635---403,438---US$ 60,215
After 8 years experience *8 349,440---420,356---US$ 62,740
After 9 years experience 9 367,692---444,472---US$ 66,339
After 10 years experience 10 386,828---469,756---US$ 70,113
After 11 years exprience 11 407,199---496,672---US$ 74,130
After 12 years of experience 12 416,156---508,506---US$ 75,896
Placement On Steps
Teachers joining WAB will be placed on the step according to their relevant full-time teaching experience as describes in the following:
*Maximum entry step is Step 8.
A teacher with 8 years of relevant teaching experience (or more) prior to WAB will enter at Step 8.
A teacher who has less than 2 years relevant teaching experience prior to WAB will enter at Step A.
Salary and benefits will be pro-rated according to FTE. |
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