Job Discussion Forums

[RollingStone]

(i did a forum search but it does not seem to be working (just get a blank page) so if there is already a healthy thread on this topic just let me know)


I have been using a software program for learning Japanese. This is a `flashcard` system. I am using it to build vocabulary, but with everything else going on (fulltime job, job search, ESL research, writing/researching MA thesis, etc etc) my consistency tends to be lacking.

What Ive found is that, over time, I can quickly absorb 10-20 new words at a half-hour sitting or less, to the point where I can score perfect on the test. Of course, a day or so later and those words are hazy. Overall, I do tend to retain meanings, or meanings are not far away if not instant.

Lately though I ve noticed that learning words individually is wholly seperate from learning complete sentences; the latter take much repetition to the point of frustration. I can use single words with my girlfriend to convey meaning but complete sentences are yet to come.

(and finally, the point of the post...)

Can anyone elaborate on the systems/methods they used and found useful (or not) and why? The `flash card` system, though jazzed up via software, seems fairly primitive (which I have nothing against if it works), and though the immediate gratification seems impressive (oh, I `learned` 30 new words today!) I am wondering how relatively effective it is for serious, fasttrack learning.

I have looked at Rosetta Stone and tried a sample but it is expensive and appears to be somewhat similar (uses flashcard component), though it boasts of high endorsements.

[RollingStone]

Elsewhere, there seemed to be some debate re effectively learning Kanji..

Can anyone shed light on the difference between learning Kanji singularly vs compounds? Is the former useless, as some suggest?

I have been learning kanji, slowly (dont ask how many). My girlfriend thinks I should get better at hiragana and katakana before tackling kanji.

[JL]

Hi again.
Even more than with your clothing question, you're probably going to get a ton of different answers with this one. But unlike the clothing Q (where we can't all possibly be right), there probably isn't one right answer to this one.
First off, you'll want to figure out how you, personally, learn best. (Though I guess you wouldn't be asking this question if you already knew that answer, huh? ) Myself, when I was a student, I was always fine learning from a textbook or learning in a classroom setting. But when I decided I was going to Japan and started trying to learn my first Japanese words, I realized that had all changed. The upshot: I've never spent a day in a Japanese classroom, and never used any formal study materials. But if I may say, my Japanese is better than most, and I've even worked part-time at both interpreting and translating.
That said, a lot of people need the books, and need the discipline of a structured learning environment. And then they thrive when they have it. So there's no "right" or "wrong", here.
To answer your question specifically, I can get you started by telling you what I, myself, have done. I just plunged right in, trying to learn characters as I came across them in everyday life. Since you're not in Japan yet, that's hard to do. But depending on how well your spoken Japanese comprehension is, with the internet, you can still do a lot. Just go to Japanese websites on topics you're naturally interested in (soccer, exchange rates, porn starlets -whatever). Try and read selected parts of what you see. Enlist your girlfriend to help you. There are also ways you can use online dictionaries to get the meaning and correct pronunciation of characters, if she balks or is otherwise not the best "learning aid" . And, try composing your own sentences in Japanese. There's no substitute for learning the kanji of words that you, yourself, want to say. I made so much of my progress by drafting business letters and email correspondence for my own livelihood (and then had my Japanese wife proofread, of course). You can just start with a simple sentence or two, about something you're interested or excited about. For example: "I'm going to Japan next month. I can't wait! 来月、日本に行きます。待ち切れない！" Just a couple of those, each day, or a short passage, will really help.
Others will direct you to textbooks they've found useful, or online sites that are really good. And again, there's no right or wrong about how to attack this. But speaking from my own learning experience (and it's a lifelong thing), keeping it as real and and as practical as possible is the best "technique." Now, go read up on those J-porn stars!

[JL]

Just saw your second post.
Oh, okay. All of the above blather I posted will probably be more helpful to you in a couple of months. But if you are like me and ready to just plunge in anyway, then go for it. Just don't get discouraged. Bite off real small chunks and be satisfied with that, each day.
As for your girlfriend's advice, YES you have to have kana down cold, for any of this, or any other method, to work. You can attack kana in the same way, actually. But until you know kana, you're going to be severely handcuffed. Should be able to read hiragana and katakana in a week or so, though.

[RollingStone]

Hey JL,

My second post may mislead.. I do know kata and hira, as characters. Reading remains v e r y s l o w .

I have taken it upon myself to try reading something, anything, book, magazine, and get exhausted. Probably am trying too much at a time. Have become big on j cinema.

Good ideas. The girlfriend does get tired of watching only j movies, and her style of learning e was/is via immersion, not formal study, so she isnt really good at things like explaining or speaking so I can understand.

Jporn starlets eh...? Ok, but if the g reacts youre taking the flack!

[wintersweet]

You need to try reading easier stuff. If it's exhausting you, or you have to stop and check a dictionary a lot, it's over your head and isn't likely to help very much.

Try this series for starters: http://www.nihongo-yomu.jp/
http://www.nihongo-yomu.jp/yomimono.html
(The *bleeps* who run the site broke the English version for Firefox last time they updated it--you have to really work to do that!--but anyway.)
You can get them in boxed sets at Kinokuniya. I really recommend them.

The rule of thumb I tell Japanese learners reading English books is that if there are 5 or more words per page that you can't understand (or understand from context) and genuinely interfere with your overall comprehension of the story, put the book back. Some kids' books are good for this, but most are too full of slang, baby talk, and abbreviated speech.

[JL]

"Some kids' books are good for this, but most are too full of slang, baby talk, and abbreviated speech."
That's right. The Japanese in books for younger children is anomalous to the Japanese which adults -and kids, for that matter- actually speak. Save yourself the trouble and avoid that from the beginning.

"...if there are 5 or more words per page that you can't understand... put the book back."
I have to respectfully request that this is downgraded from a "rule of thumb", to "one possible guideline." Certainly, this would not be appropriate for me, or somebody who learns the same way I do (by just jumping in.) RollingStone should try several different approaches, until he find what works best for him. Though perhaps your approach will be that, Wintersweet. But I do fear that only five words per page might be too limiting.
As for being"exhausted" from trying to read something written in a foreign language, yes, that's something to keep an eye on. But yet it depends... If one pushes themselves too hard each time, they'll probably end up quitting. But learning another language -especially learning how to read it- is just like training unused muscle. Your tolerance, or "stamina" increases after a while. You just have to "build it up" in moderation. Also, I sincerely believe that one of the keys to being able to stick with learning something new, is to do it in the context of something the student is already interested in. Most textbooks, unfortunately, don't do such a good job of that. I, for one, can enjoy attacking a Japanese news story on NPB players coming to America, far more easily than an article on the Prime Minister's cabinet, or a text book's reading passage about a housewife's morning at the market. RollingStone is a weight-lifter: just as in working out, push yourself a little bit, but don't over-train.

(Also, I should clarify at this point that I cannot read Japanese effortlessly. I can get the general thrust of a news story without looking up any words. But there are always words /characters I don't know. And usually more than five.

Okay, RS. I've butted in enough with your Q's already. Please read what everybody has to suggest, and then figure out by trial and error what works best for you (like J-porn...)

[wintersweet]

Well, JL, like I said, it's the rule of thumb that I use with my students and myself, and it can be fudged when we find something that still feels okay. But I'd also like to clarify--it's not just five words you don't know, but ones that "genuinely interfere with your overall comprehension of the story." Words that you don't know but you can skip over and keep going don't count.

And of course, it varies according to the individual (and how many words are on the page, blah blah blah).

[JL]

"It's not just five words you don't know, but ones that "genuinely interfere with your overall comprehension of the story." Words that you don't know but you can skip over and keep going don't count. "

Good point and good clarification.