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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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 Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:06 am Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| Actually, I am a little saddened that so many posters have had such bad experience with observations and feedback. For me, I have never had a problem with them in theory or practice, but maybe that's just my good fortune. In fact I have found, in total opposition to others writing here, the best schools I worked for always had a regular system of observations, teacher-training workshops, seminars etc. It was the schools that didn't do any of this that tended to be the cowboy outfits. |
| Sashadroogie also wrote: |
| Yes, it is a big, bad world out there in EFL. I am not na�ve. I have no reason to doubt other posters' experiences. I have been lucky I avoided this type of hardship in my early career, but 12 odd years later, I doubt I�ll ever suffer it in the future. I have moved on, lucky me. From the other side, though, I have ample experience of nasty stuff from a few of the observees I have, erm, encountered. One or two �novelist� types refused in no uncertain terms to listen to anything about the teaching of grammar, as they had superior knowledge to all others. Apparently, one of them really thought that his reading aloud page after page from his latest opus would help the learners (elementaries) appreciate the finer points of English. The suggestion that the observed bored, blank faces said otherwise was not something he would brook. Then there was the radio journalist who conducted every lesson at a high speed gallop, often answering his own questions before the students could comprehend them. Any feedback suggestion that speed of delivery was an issue was forcefully countered with the withering accusation that I didn�t understand the perils of �dead air�. A local non-native English teacher argued at every possible point that no feedback from me could be valuable as I didn�t know the local culture, the students or even the local language, and that I should really ask her for expert help. (In point of fact, I have observed Modern Language classes quite effectively, though I speak not a word of Arabic or German.) At the same time, and rather comically, I was also accused of being a charlatan by one untrained teacher who tried to refuse to have any observations as I was not a native speaker. (I am - just not the same nationality as her. Not that this should really matter.) Thankfully, though, this list is not so long, but the nastiness factor was quite high. |
Hmm, being observed isn't such an apocalyptically BAD experience for most people; rather, it just doesn't seem to be ITHOs a particularly formative part of their in-service development. (Now might be a good time to here pose a question that I once asked over on the Teacher forums: 'Who (or what, or where/when) has been the biggest influence on your teaching?'). But I'm sure that those of us EFL teachers who somehow qualified and are now e.g. frustrated novelists prone to giving free readings in class, would stand to benefit from observation and willing to without question take on board everything we were being advised for the umpteenth time.
| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| (A) more interesting question was raised about the 'monitoring' purpose of observations. This is no secret at all. Of course they are sometimes used as a form of appraisal, especially for new teachers on a trial period, or on a training course. While most other professions do not have this particular method of appraisal, they certainly do have some. I know of no profession where management does not �check-up� on staff performance. In teaching, there are not too many other alternatives to observations. Student feedback is essential too, but not reliable on its own, anymore than observations are. In my own management experience, I often witnessed successful 'personality' teachers who got consistently positive feedback when teaching short summer courses, but then suffered from negative feedback from students in longer term classes who were not satisfied with mere entertainment and wanted something concrete from their class. Conflicting feedback - which does a school believe? How else is it possible to find out what reasons may account for this disparity? Incidentally, I found that when having to deal with complaints from students, the first thing most teachers usually say in their defence is, 'That's not true. You have no right to say/believe that because you weren't there!' Can't seem to win. I�m a spy if I observe: I�m uninformed if I don�t. |
Yes, it is hard to ensure that people learn a language...and standard, general, non-ESP methodology but more importantly materials just might not cut it for some (students, if not teachers too). But who's going to rock the boat, even if the worst that could happen is that one remains confined to shovelling coal in the engine rooms, such is the number of passengers and the resulting need to retain enough crew. |
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Marcoregano
Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 872
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:25 am Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| I believe most of us would still accept the overall validity of the doctor�s findings. |
Ha ha!! I don't trust doctors, at least not all the time - and nor should you Ms Sasha. A right buch of crooks, half of 'em anyway. Up to a point a agree with the analogy, but for an observation to be credible the observer must take into account the impact s/he has on any given lesson - it will vary.
| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| Point taken about Hong Kong and other methods of development. However, please correct me if I am wrong here, but from the little I know about the place, it seems to draw experienced and well-trained teachers who do not need so much support or observation in the first place. |
Yes, but it is the observation of experienced teachers (for no good reason) that I am objecting to, and that some have been defending. I have no problem with observations as a learning tool for trainee teachers, though I think trainees observing experienced teachers is probably more useful than they themselves being observed.
| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| Maybe the CCTV thing is not a bad idea? |
Yes, this is probably where we're headed, and it's not good!
What I'd like to see in place at schools which feel they need to have an observations system in place for experienced staff in is something like this:
School principal is talking to newly appointed, but experienced teacher.
"At this school, as you may know, we run a system of internal classroom observations run by colleagues for colleagues. Such observations are entirely optional and any feedback arising from them is of no interest to me. Some teachers enjoy working with their peers this way, others don't, the choice is yours."
Last edited by Marcoregano on Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Lhenderson
Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Posts: 135
Location: Shanghai JuLu Road
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:51 am Post subject: |
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I think CCTV in the classrooms is the next helpful step in the evolution of teaching.
I'm discussing this with my school administration and Party officials in Shanghai. |
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DIPTESOL
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:52 am Post subject: |
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Yes, maybe CCTV could be a way of 'looking in' on teachers without being too invasive in the classroom. Although wouldn't the teacher still be aware of the camera being there and therefore constantly feel as though they are being observed? In order to give the teacher some rights would the observer still inform the teacher they are going to observe their lesson? Or would they tune in if they want to do random spot obs?
Incidentally Lhenderson, which school are you at in Shanghai?
This discussion really has been interesting I've enjoyed it and glad I posted it! |
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basiltherat
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 952
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| "At this school, as you may know, we run a system of internal classroom observations run by colleagues for colleagues. Such observations are entirely optional and any feedback arising from them is of no interest to me. Some teachers enjoy working with their peers this way, others don't, the choice is yours." |
Yep. I'd personally go along with that. I think a lot of us would, too; especially those who, like me, think the whole idea of teacher-observers should be disposed of.
Re CCTV, how about having ALL lessons of each teacher recorded and archived for, lets say, a period of 12 months before they (or at least, most) are 'deleted'.
Only if there are 'issues' which arise should they be viewed by management. In addition, less experienced teachers could view them at their leisure if they wish; either to objectively critique their own lessons (if that is possible !) or see his peers' lessons from which he can pick up a few ideas.
Yeah, this is a great thread. Lots of brainstorming, it appears. Lots of grand ideas being formulated.
Best
Basil  |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Unless you had students literally jumping through blazing hoops or attacking you or each other with chairs, grainy muffled CCTV footage of the average classroom would probably resemble the shut-eye bits of Big Brother (and who'd want to watch much of that?). And actually being in the classroom (before somebody mentions that) can be like being in the daytime BB house (i.e. 'No thanks' too!). |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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Started reading this Ofsted report recently:
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Title - Every language matters: An evaluation of the extent and impact of initial training to teach a wider range of world languages
Executive summary
The initial purpose of this survey was to evaluate the provision and impact of postgraduate certificate in education (PGCE) courses for intending teachers of languages other than French, German, Irish, Spanish, and Welsh. The survey was extended to examine the reasons behind the lack of provision and uptake of PGCE courses and alternative training routes. The survey is set against a background of inspection which shows consistently high results at GCSE level in community languages and yet a wide variety in the quality of teaching. |
( http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/Ofsted-home/Publications-and-research/Browse-all-by/Education/Teachers-and-teacher-training/Routes-into-teaching/Every-language-matters/(language)/eng-GB )
Is there no satisfying some observers?
Ah, but wait, maybe those good exam results are obtained mainly due to the affinity that presumably most of the students taking them already have with the languages (that is, a lot of those students could come from ethnic minorities). Hard to say (I need to read the whole report), but the condemnatory dig bolded above must have riled at least a few teachers. |
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