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Online Cert Training - The Final Word
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word_to_the_wise

Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 67
Location: Riyadh

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:15 pm Post subject:

Well done Chancellor That's just the sort of off-hand myopic (check your dictionary) comment that sends many a newbie to part with hard earned cash for useless bits of paper. We all KNOW that universities offer online degrees - so what? We're not talking about that. So what if there's a school that offers onsite or online??? If they offer it online then they're no good - that's the whole point of this discussion. If you can't take 4 or 5 weeks off to do FT training then you can't enter the EFL classroom!! Why are you seeing it from the (prospective) teacher's perspective? Very selfish.Why not from the fee-paying students, as I've repeatedly said? No doubt you are online trained......if at all.

Chancellor

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:58 pm Post subject:

Justin Trullinger wrote:

Welcome Chancellor,

I was wondering when you'd get here!

Through this board, I've learned (from you) about the Ontesol course, and it looks really good to me.

But it's not one of the major online providers that I keep running into. Every day, I get apps from a LOT of online cert holders; most have never set foot in a classroom (as teacher) in their lives, and most couldn't find their behinds with both hands where language teaching is concerned.

Yet they have been mislead into thinking that these meaningless, extremely low priced certificates they've done are of the same value as yours. I resent that a lot, and so should they. Those are the online certificates I keep seeing.

No doubt that any course accepted for TESOL certification by the Canadian government is fine, or in fact better than fine. Most online certs wouldn't have a prayer.

What I said before:

Quote:

if academic contact, practice teaching, and highly trained trainers are the characteristics of a good cert

Then the cert you mention is better than fine. And I'm not anti-distance study. (Ask me about my masters!)

But any holder of the Ontesol cert, done at distance, has good reason to resent the majority of online cert qualifications, as these certs spread the idea that online training is horse...erm...manure. And let's not forget that one of the many things that sets the ontesol course apart (in my opinion, but also in the opinion of the Canadian government) is the fact that it isn't completely a distance qualification- you have to do the practice teaching. And you have to do it where they can see you.

Best,

Justin

Which is why I said here (and in a couple of other threads) that it's important to take a close look at the course content (this is true even for onsite courses). There's a huge difference between a school that offers the same course online that it offers onsite and one that is strictly online and doesn't have much content. Besides, if the government of Canada recognizes a particular course for certification to teach ESL in Canada, it can't be half-bad.

Whether one does the coursework online or onsite, the most important thing is the teaching practice with real students - we clearly agree on that point. Even universities that offer education degree programs (for prospective teachers, regardless of subject) still require teaching practice with real students and there's no doubt that this is absolutely essential. You have to prove that you can teach before you are certified to teach.

I think our friend word-to-the-wise is one of those people who think that if it isn't CELTA (the brand name) then it isn't real. I suppose that person would say that a degree program (in, say, elementary education) from an accredited university in the US (such as the University of Massachusetts, a state university) or Canada (such as the University of Toronto) somehow isn't valid if the coursework was done online.

It isn't where you're learning that matters, it's what you're learning that counts. Just because George W. Bush has an MBA from Yale doesn't mean he was very good at business.

What will people like word-to-the-wise do when just about everything is done online; when technology advances to the point where it becomes routine for the teacher to teach from one location while his/her students are sitting in front of their computers at home?

Chancellor

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:09 pm Post subject:

word_to_the_wise wrote:

Well done Chancellor

That's just the sort of off-hand myopic (check your dictionary) comment that sends many a newbie to part with hard earned cash for useless bits of paper.

We all KNOW that universities offer online degrees - so what? We're not talking about that.

So what if there's a school that offers onsite or online??? If they offer it online then they're no good - that's the whole point of this discussion.

Well, it can't be that useless if the government of Canada recognizes it. Besides, exactly what is it about online courses that you hate so much? Is there something special about you sitting in a classroom learning the same material that you can learn online? If the course content is exactly the same, what difference does it make where you learn it? Now, if you want to talk about teaching practice (with real students), that's another matter and that absolutely must be done onsite. But grammar or morphology or teaching methodology can be learned anywhere.

Quote:

If you can't take 4 or 5 weeks off to do FT training then you can't enter the EFL classroom!! Why are you seeing it from the (prospective) teacher's perspective? Very selfish.Why not from the fee-paying students, as I've repeatedly said?

Some people have jobs and they can't take four to five weeks off from work. I suppose in your thinking that anyone who works full time and attends college isn't getting a real education either? What's more important: what a person has learned or where the person has learned it?

Sorry, you're going to have to do a better job of supporting your argument.

Justin Trullinger

Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3110
Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:23 pm Post subject:

Okay, this is a valuable topic to have on a newbie thread. If more newbies would read this, read it all, not just the posts of us self-appointed experts, but read the whole thread, the overall level of training that I see on applications just might improve.

I would like that to happen.

Which means I would NOT like this thread to get shut down due to descent into insults and personal attacks, if it isn't too late.

So let's all try to be nice.

I liked what wttw said:

Quote:

There absolutely must be 'live' Teaching Practice sessions.

And

Quote:

email your prospective employers and check they recognise it.

I would add-

Talk to the trainers. See how much they know, and how much they've studied.

Check out the college or university, and I MEAN college or university that offers/accredits/validates the course.

Now while for a wide variety of reasons, I'm not a proponent of distance learning as a first qualifications, I have to admit that a distance course that stands up to these criteria doesn't sound at all bad to me.

Especially if it is acceptable to the Canadian government as part of TESOL certification. TESOL certification in that area is usually MUCH more demanding than a four week cert.

Let's try to compare apples to apples, people.

THere are a heck of a lot of fly by night, not attached to a real educational institute, cheap as heck, no-practice-teaching, trainers are a bunch of monkeys, nobody checking standards, TEFL/TESOL/EFL/Etc certificates out there. Whether online or onsite, these suck.

THere are quite a few really accredited, medium-to-high priced, real practice teaching with real live students, trainers are real pros with real training and experience, standards tightly controlled, TEFL/TESOL/EFL/Etc certificate courses our there, which don't suck. Whether online or onsite, these potentially help teachers be ready to serve students.

I happen to believe that most online courses fall into the first category- not because they're online, but because of the other criteria.

WTTW- you've ticked a lot of people off by trying to put all onsite courses other than CELTA and Trinity into that category, too. And I don't think that can be backed up. I think that most of us here on this board agree on a lot of the most important criteria- but you seem eager to criticise courses (and sometimes regrettably people) that you don't know a lot about.

Chancellor- We were generalizing about online courses, and you're probably right to call us on it. But be careful- if I can guess, you spent a lot of time investigating distance options, and found one that was very credible. Which means you must have seen a lot that weren't. There are a lot of courses out there that I don't think you'd want to defend. When most of us came on strong against online courses, you know which ones we mean.

Best,
Justin

Chancellor

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:33 pm Post subject:

Justin Trullinger wrote:

Agreed.

Quote:

So let's all try to be nice.

I liked what wttw said:

Quote:

There absolutely must be 'live' Teaching Practice sessions.

Yes, the teaching practice must be onsite with real students. There is just no way of getting around that.

Quote:

And

Quote:

email your prospective employers and check they recognise it.

But how many employers have the same attitude as wttw and lump all online courses into the same category?

Quote:

I'd say the same thing applies to the onsite courses as well.

Quote:

Now while for a wide variety of reasons, I'm not a proponent of distance learning as a first qualifications, I have to admit that a distance course that stands up to these criteria doesn't sound at all bad to me.

I think it all comes down to course content.

Quote:

Especially if it is acceptable to the Canadian government as part of TESOL certification. TESOL certification in that area is usually MUCH more demanding than a four week cert.

Let's try to compare apples to apples, people.

Since wttw put all online courses into the same category, isn't that what we're doing?

Quote:

THere are a heck of a lot of fly by night, not attached to a real educational institute, cheap as heck, no-practice-teaching, trainers are a bunch of monkeys, nobody checking standards, TEFL/TESOL/EFL/Etc certificates out there. Whether online or onsite, these suck.

Agreed.

Quote:

THere are quite a few really accredited, medium-to-high priced, real practice teaching with real live students, trainers are real pros with real training and experience, standards tightly controlled, TEFL/TESOL/EFL/Etc certificate courses our there, which don't suck. Whether online or onsite, these potentially help teachers be ready to serve students.

I happen to believe that most online courses fall into the first category- not because they're online, but because of the other criteria.

Which is why it's so important to examine a course carefully. While it's important to look at who is recognizing/accrediting the course, it's also important to look at the instructional content and the amount of expertise the course instructors have. I think most of us agree on this point but it tends to get glossed over by dogmatics who insist "If it isn't CELTA/Trinity then it isn't real certification."

Quote:

WTTW- you've ticked a lot of people off by trying to put all onsite courses other than CELTA and Trinity into that category, too. And I don't think that can be backed up. I think that most of us here on this board agree on a lot of the most important criteria- but you seem eager to criticise courses (and sometimes regrettably people) that you don't know a lot about.

It's the argument between brand name and generic and, again, it all comes down to the content.

Quote:

Chancellor- We were generalizing about online courses, and you're probably right to call us on it. But be careful- if I can guess, you spent a lot of time investigating distance options, and found one that was very credible. Which means you must have seen a lot that weren't. There are a lot of courses out there that I don't think you'd want to defend. When most of us came on strong against online courses, you know which ones we mean.

Yes, I'm calling you all on generalizing because you're missing what's most important: the instructional content. What are you learning? How in-depth does the course go into such things as grammar, morphology and teaching methodology? For example, i-to-i focuses a lot on methodology (even if it is only a 40-hour course) but its grammar is a separate add-on 20-hour module; also, it doesn't have an onsite teaching practice with real students. Compare that to, say, ONTESOL which divides its 250-hour course into three parts: grammar, morphology and methodology and you have to successfully complete all three to receive the certification - and the certification is recognized by the Canadian government (if you also have a four-year degree recognized by the Canadian government). A seriously questionable course is William Brewster's TESOL Institute (http://tesol1.tripod.com/): even though it has 200 hours of course content, it doesn't appear to be accredited by anyone. Various schools that offer onsite courses also offer online courses, e.g. Bridge-Linguatec, TEF International, and ITTO. But, again, who accredits these courses, what is the course content, what qualifications do the instructors have, does it offer onsite teaching practice with real students, etc.? In these ongoing debates over what course a newbie should take, just making blanket statements like "CELTA/Trinity or it's not real training" or "no online course is acceptable," etc. is not helpful. There are numerous courses out there and newbies come here looking for help working through that maze of courses. The comments that are generally the most helpful are ones like "A course should have at least 100 hours of coursework and at least six hours of teaching practice with real ESL/EFL students" but even that really isn't enough. Newbies need to know what to look for as far as instructional content, the experience of the instructors, etc.

Also, let's face facts: not everyone can take four to five weeks off from work to do an onsite course. That inability shouldn't keep those people out of the profession. If colleges/universities are adapting their programs so that working stiffs can access them, why not the TEFL profession?

Here's one list of various online courses out there:

http://www.worldwidelearn.com/language-courses/tefl-tesl-course.htm

word_to_the_wise

Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 67
Location: Riyadh

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:28 am Post subject:

Chancellor wrote:

I think our friend word-to-the-wise is one of those people who think that if it isn't CELTA (the brand name) then it isn't real. I suppose that person would say that a degree program (in, say, elementary education) from an accredited university in the US (such as the University of Massachusetts, a state university) or Canada (such as the University of Toronto) somehow isn't valid if the coursework was done online.

I think, Chancellor, you should actually read what I said.

I put that I don't think it's healthy to have one or two brand names and that indeed CELTA doesn't guarantee being a competent classroom performer.However due to the syllabus, live TP and external moderation, we can surmise that it offers a sound start for those wanting to develop a career in EFL.

I also pointed out that online degree programs are a separate issue, and actually for the record I have no issue with that.My MA was distance learning.I could not care less what the Canadian government recognises or does not.

For the final time, we are discussing online entry level training prior to entering the EFL classroom.

Anyway I've made my point, thanks to Justin for being a sensible moderator.I don't feel the need to post further regarding this.I just hope newbies read all of it and make a sensible, reasoned decision.Above all think about the needs of your hard-working, fee-paying students - you owe it to them.

Chancellor

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:52 pm Post subject:

word_to_the_wise wrote:

Chancellor wrote:

Let me quote you: "There is no substitute at entry level for the Cambridge CELTA or Trinity TESOL."

Quote:

I also pointed out that online degree programs are a separate issue, and actually for the record I have no issue with that.My MA was distance learning.I could not care less what the Canadian government recognises or does not.

But they're not really separate, unless you're going to tell me that preparing to teach English as a foreign language is so significantly different from (i.e. less than) preparing to teach any other subject (e.g. another language, math, social studies, small appliance repair...): we're still talking about entry level teaching.

Quote:

For the final time, we are discussing online entry level training prior to entering the EFL classroom.

Yes, I know that. Now answer the question: what difference does it make whether you learn the course content in a classroom or online?

Quote:

Anyway I've made my point, thanks to Justin for being a sensible moderator.I don't feel the need to post further regarding this.I just hope newbies read all of it and make a sensible, reasoned decision.Above all think about the needs of your hard-working, fee-paying students - you owe it to them.

And, in your mind, "There is no substitute at entry level for the Cambridge CELTA or Trinity TESOL." Thanks. We got it.

Chancellor

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:30 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Newbies need to know what to look for as far as instructional content, the experience of the instructors, etc.

So, how about it, forum moderators? What are the chances of you creating a sticky that provides a comprehensive guide to finding the right TEFL/TESOL training course?

naturegirl321

Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 9041
Location: home sweet home

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:02 pm Post subject:

they might. But you'd probably have to PM them and ask.

nstick13

Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 104
Location: The Ohio State University

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:54 am Post subject:

I would LOVE one of those, and would even contribute a lot of information that I've read.

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