Job Discussion Forums

[elkarlo]

I know we have all run into them. People in Japan who may have been here for years, yet know only super basic Japanese. Or people planning on going, and either not studying, or figuring that they can 'study when I get there'.

Two of my friends went to Kansai Gaidai as exchange students. One went in the Fall, the other just left. I was there last Spring, and helped them out, preparing them, telling them what to expect etc. Anyhow both outright refused to study more Japanese. The guy who left in the Fall Justin, didn't study Japanese at all during the summer. He had finished JPN 202 or 4 semesters of Japanese. yet he was placed in the same class that I took with my 1 semester of Japanese. My other friend Tiffany finished JPN 301 or 5 semesters of Japanese, and she too was placed in the same class I took.

Also in country I met a few Gaijin who just couldn't seem to be able to string together a few sentences. Why? I mean you are in the country, and for many, for several years. Why not at least get to a decent level? For my friends why not put in some effort as that is what they're going to Japan for, to learn Japanese. I can't seem to wrap my head around it. Also share your stories. Shame is a good way to make people improve themselves

[steki47]

I met a bunch of gaijin like that. A lot of the former management Nova, for example. There are numerous excuses, er, reasons:
1. Japanese spouse takes care of the paperwork, etc.
2. English teachers usually don't/shouldn't use Japanese at work.
3. Most of their friends are other Westerners or bilingual Japanese.
4. Total laziness.
Personally, I think it is personally limiting and somewhat rude to the people around you to not learn the language to some degree. But that's just me. I failed level 2 of the JLPT and can't really understand the news. After 5 years in Japan, mind you. So I won't point fingers.

[Vince]

I enjoyed spending time with my fellow EFL teachers, but the one glaring flaw too many of them had was their indifference to learning Japanese. I'm not talking about those with grammar issues or whatever, but those who didn't bother to learn at all. After a certain amount of time in country, you need to feed yourself lots of excuses to justify it.

When people in the US hear of my time in Japan, the typical response is, "So do you speak Ja - oh, well, if you lived there for nine years, of course you do." Whether in Japan or in their home country, I guess some people just don't care.

I remember many eikaiwa teachers who were in the country for a few years but couldn't speak Japanese. They went to Japan right after graduating and were basically extending their college partying days. Their air of superiority was ridiculous, but they were basically laughable false adults. The group that got under my skin was the higher education teachers with advanced degrees, gripes about everything, no Japanese, and enough age to know better.

It bothered me that so many foreigners set such expectations with the Japanese that I subsequently had to overcome. On the other hand, their lack of effort put me in better stead for opportunities. As saturated as the market is, the more slackers the merrier.

[elkarlo]

[elkarlo]

[natsume]

Good thread for a kick in the pants! I have been here 18 months, had studied to about maybe the third semester mark at a private language school prior to coming, and did put in some effort the first 6 months here, but must admit to pretty much not studying at all for about a year. In that time, I think I have become marginally better conversationally, and this is pretty much prior knowledge+osmosis. Helps to have a mix of Japanese friends and aquaintences, some with English ability, some with little or no. But I have commented to people that ask that in the past few months I think my Japanese has actually become worse, because when I was studying a year ago, I was just getting into what is, for me, new and difficult grammar, basically low intermediate, and I have lost it.

I have spent a lot of time taking courses via distance as prereqs for grad school, and reading and thinking about my life post-JET/Japan, so I don't feel entirely guilty, but I will be pretty much done with that process after I return to the states next month to take some qualifying tests for California teachers. After that, it is time to set some goals for Japanese.

As much kanji as possible (I am a kanji dork).
JLPT 3 this December.
If I stay until 2011, the new JLPT 3, December 2010.


I have also encountered these long term gaijin who have Japanese worse, or even far, far worse than mine, and share the disdain.

[Glenski]

For those of you who don't list Japan on your avatar, have you ever been in Japan and tried to learn the language? If not, don't point fingers and do Monday morning quarterbacking.

To learn zero Japanese is obviously ridiculous.
To be less than fluent is case by case because it depends on how long one has been here, and "less than fluent" means a wide range of ability.

As I've written before (and I hope Zzonkmiles comes back to back me up on this because his is the best example of what it takes to learn the language), it is not an easy proposition to learn the language.

You have to alienate yourself from friends and coworkers. In the beginning, that is terribly hard to do because of peer pressure of various sorts.

You have to force yourself to put in the time. How much self-studying do you think you can manage? The country is new to most, attracting for sightseeing if nothing else, and an unknown element to others (which simply means you may not be able to find or know where to find the right study materials). The urge to leave one's confines of the tiny apartment is very strong. Since you don't have to know a single word before you set foot in the country, can you honestly say that starting one's studies at that point--ground zero--is such an easy task for most? Then, you have on top of all that, the pressures and time constraints of learning a new job. If you don't give a hoot and are just here to party, that's one thing, but for those with an ounce of zeal to learn what it is they are doing, it can often take a long time to figure it out, search web sites for lesson plans, learn how to write them up, and actually spend the time doing it. Eikaiwa teachers' hours are crappy at best, from noon to 9pm in the office alone and spending another hour or so just to get home. Exhausted after a new type of work, who's ready to study at 10pm (or later if you succumb to the pressure of going out with friends/coworkers that hook you into tipping a few glasses and b!tching about the job in English or (for the guys) ogling and mingling with the local female population?

Call these excuses if you will, but they are very real. If you have not been there and walked in someone's shoes, think before playing a shamemaker here.

Yes, there's laziness.
Yes, there is guilt.
Sometimes there is time and opportunity. Breaks are not what you think they may be. Neither are those Japanese coworkers.

[Seibu]

Interesting topic.

I did eight years in country and have to admit that I never came close to mastering the language. Mostly laziness.

However, while I rip myself for not 'picking it up', it's not fair to lump everyone as losers.

I knew some extremely intelligent and dedicated professionals in Japan - some of them in the ESL world - that never learned beyond some basic Nihongo. You can't equate intelligence with learning language. It's entirely about a commitment to a goal and those folks for whatever reason didn't have the drive to learn Japanese.

And quite honestly, while it's totally disrespectful to not learn the language, for 90% of ex-eigo sensais, Nihongo becomes a party trick. I cannot think of a single moment in my life after Japan where I wished I could speak Japanese.

[Sour Grape]

Although I'm not among them, people who don't learn Japanese don't bother me at all, as long as they don't whinge about how hard everyday life is because they don't understand what's happening around them.

I know a few people who don't study Japanese, but are very dedicated teachers and good at their jobs, and many more who chat their "lessons" away to get back to those moments in their working day where they can study. I know which ones I have more respect for.

It's fine to admore those who speak Japanese really well, but I don't see people who haven't tried to learn it as deserving of scorn per se.

[natsume]

I should note, my disdain for "those" gaijin is entirely a projection, and hence entirely self-directed.

[G Cthulhu]

[Yawarakaijin]

The following is my personal experience but I will throw it out there for those accusing some "gaijin" about not being able to move past that intermediary level of Japanese.

Is there any other nationality out there that will heap praise upon you merely for being able to mutter a few sentences in their native language?

Seriously, you could speak utter garbage Japanese but as long as you have a combination of a noun and a verb that makes sense to them they are more than happy. I don't say that to sound condescending, I belive it is a real road block to learning the language while at the same time being one of the endearing qualities of the Japanese.

How would you treat a friend from China who, after 6 years of living in Canada, came up with sentences like "I go store now." Chances are he wouldn't get very far in Canada . I have very close friends here and I honestly can't remember any of them ever correcting me on my Japanese.

Let's take a moment to discuss the practicalities of everyday life here in Japan with minimal Japanese and compare it with what expats must go through in Canada or the US.

Young Tanaka walks into a small shop in rural Manitoba and comes up with the sentence " Me. Phone please." Just how far do you think that boy is gonna get. I can see the look of disgust on the shop keepers face right now. Rolling his eyes calling over his buddies to laugh at this guys horrible English. Young Mr. Tanaka is pretty much forced to go home at hit the books. If he has a good enough friend nearby he or she would quite happily inform him of what he should have said.

Same sitiuation, different location. Young Bill Smith walks into a conbini in Aomori and comes up with "Watashi denwa kudasai" Two seconds later he has a phone in his hand. His friend Taro was 5 feet away and decided it wouldn't be proper to correct him on his horrible Japanese.

Face it. If you are not in Japan professionally and working in an office that demands fluent Japanese very few of us are going to get to that level for the simple fact that we really aren't "forced" to learn it here.

I just don't think the situation in Japan is condusive to learning the language for a myriad of reasons. Sure anyone can do it it if, as Glenski points out, one is able to ostracize himself from the foreign community and hit the books during every minute of their free time but I doubt that happens very often.

I would probably put my Japanese at the intermediate level. I can't speak very eloquently but I have enough to get by in my daily life. To be honest I don't yet see the advantage in putting in the huge amounts of my free time to become fluent in the language.

If am were to be completely honest though, I find the foreigners who have a very high level of Japanese to be a little more annoying than the ones who can't speak a word.

[Seibu]

Excellent point on the difference in cultures. I honestly don't think the Japanese expect much from a gaijin other than effort.

If you don't learn the language, you'll just be frustrated with yourself the longer you go without it. I kicked myself a million times over it.

True story......when I first arrived in Japan 12 years ago this week, I took a stroll around the lake at Ueno Park. An old American man approached me and started a conversation.

He asked how long I had been in Japan and if I 'had a girlfriend yet'. The whole conversation seemed a bit odd.

He asked if I spoke Japanese and told him that I did not. He said...'if you don't learn Japanese, you'll just be skimming the surface. So much of Japan you'll miss out on.'

He then walked away and into a movie theatre. I later walked by the theatre and discovered it was a GAY theatre. Ha! Interesting.

Anyway, not long after, I discovered the man was none other than local celeb gaijin Donald Richie, who lived in the area.

But I have to agree with a man that's lived in Japan over 50 years.....you'll just be skimming the surface.

[markle]

I tend to agree that lack of time and commitment, coupled with a lack of incentive at work to learn is why my Japanese is embarassingly bad. I would also add that I already speak Thai fluently so I don't really need to impress anyone vis-a-vis the whole "I can speak a foreign language" thing.
One other thing I put it down to also is, well, being fluent in the local language can, as well as opening up a whole world of understanding, destroys a whole world of mystery. I enjoy the fact that many everyday things are completely out of my comprehension. The mindnumbing banal conversations people have on the train are for me a wonder of inscrutable babble. Even the most pedestrian preusal of the menu can bring about interesting surprises.
Embarrasing at times but nothing to be ashamed of.

[gaijinalways]

Yawarakaijin posted