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bharrell · Joined: 25 Oct 2008 Posts: 102

I have reached my saturation point. I will never set foot in Russia or Ukraine as long as I live. I don't know what I was thinking. Well, actually I was fascinated by this culture because it was different and exciting. And the women are beautiful.
But once I got below the surface, I found the people to be cold, dishonest and brutal. Brutality pervades the entire culture. Here are some of the things I observed:

It is considered clever to rip someone off.
The end justifies the means.
Kindness is confused with weakness.
Lying and convoluted logic are acceptable to get what you want.

At least I understand why people want to leave the country.

Of course there are notable exceptions. There are good people here, and it is remarkable they have managed to remain that way, living in such a society. I have a job elsewhere now, and I've never been so glad to get out of anywhere in my life.

If I ever meet another Russian/Ukrainian I will run like hell.

Bradley326 · Joined: 17 Jan 2009 Posts: 14

Just out of curiosity, where exactly were you living and for how long?

canucktechie · Joined: 07 Feb 2003 Posts: 343 Location: Moscow

I think most people are quite good hearted, but due to the seriously dysfunctional society there is simply no reason for people to be honest and trusting with anyone other than their own family and friends. It just doesn't get you anywhere.

Actually Russia is not a lot different from many other Third World countries in this regard, it's just that a lot of westerners are slow to see the country that way because it used to be a "superpower". You think that a country that developed atomic weapons had to be a bit more advanced. Well so did Pakistan.

Red and white · Joined: 30 Sep 2007 Posts: 63

My experience of Russia is largely limited to Moscow, though I've travelled elsewhere.

Generally I've found that in a professional sphere, incompetence is about the best I can hope for. At least that's not usually done maliciously.

But socially I've made several good Russian friends, and been treated with great kindness by many people. I understand how the OP reached his conclusions, but I wonder how long he spent here and how many Russians he met socially?

If I was going to give advice (which sounds horribly arrogant, but that's tough - I'm in the mood now!), I'd suggest making an effort with the language, and making an effort to step away from the expat bubble. I've struggled to form genuine friendships with people who want to be able to say '.... my English friend ....', but pitching up at gigs by local bands, watching local football or hockey matches and, on occasion, passing the time of day on the elektrichka has been a very different experience. But maybe I just got lucky.

Having said all that, I don't think I behaved any differently in Azerbaijan, and had real problems there getting to know anyone at all. Switch countries and I'd echo the OP down to the last chorus. Each to their own, I guess ...

jpvanderwerf2001 · Joined: 02 Oct 2003 Posts: 1117 Location: New York

I completely understand the OP's position. After six plus years living in both Ukraine and Russia, I would have a very hard time disagreeing. These countries are not for everyone (meaning foreigners), and I wouldn't recommend it to most.
The best tip I can give for someone who'd like to move long-term to Russia/Ukraine: Learn patience.
Red and White gave some good advice too.

zeke0606 · Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:58 am Post subject: what?

I can understand the points made by the OP and all the rest. I have lived in Russia since 2000 with a side trips to other countries for short term teaching assignments and a new visa.

Although I have never ever lived in Moscow, I have found those obnoxious folks everywhere, in every country. There does seem to be a few more in Russia, however what bharrell listed as serious side effects of the other societal norms are true too.

One thing I might add is this - The farther away from the 'touristy' Moscow and St Pete the less you find obnoxious people, although a lot more naive and sometimes stupid of foreigners and can be very offensive without having a clue of what they have done. I think this 'uncivil' behavior comes from the last thousand years of their government isolating them for the rest of the world and punishing anything that is not 'approved'. Or maybe not!

And as always Red and white is pretty much 'right on' in what was written.

Zeke

zeke0606 · Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:58 am Post subject: what?

I can understand the points made by the OP and all the rest. I have lived in Russia since 2000 with a side trips to other countries for short term teaching assignments and a new visa.

Although I have never ever lived in Moscow, I have found those obnoxious folks everywhere, in every country. There does seem to be a few more in Russia, however what bharrell listed as serious side effects of the other societal norms are true too.

One thing I might add is this - The farther away from the 'touristy' Moscow and St Pete the less you find obnoxious people, although a lot more naive and sometimes stupid of foreigners and can be very offensive without having a clue of what they have done. I think this 'uncivil' behavior comes from the last thousand years of their government isolating them for the rest of the world and punishing anything that is not 'approved'. Or maybe not!

And as always Red and white is pretty much 'right on' in what was written.

Zeke

sukoma · Joined: 14 Apr 2008 Posts: 16 Location: Longmont, CO

Good advice all around. I sort of live out in the sticks (Samara region) and I've found that on an individual (or small group) level that people are very nice and friendly. In large groups (such as on the bus or in public places), the people can seem rude and shove their way around. While this gets on my nerves, it's best to just let it go. You'll drive yourself crazy letting it bother you.

The language barrier has been my biggest difficulty here. Outside of my classrooms, I rarely find very few people who speak any more than elementary level English. Even the staff at my school don't speak much English. This also means that they assume that because I don't speak a lot of Russian, I'm some kind of idiot...which is fine with me. This also means they don't expect a lot from me, so I have the freedom to run my classes the way I see fit. Being kind of happy-go-lucky has helped a lot outside of work as well. I'm very well liked in all of the shops and cafes in my neighborhood because I just maintain being very nice...it is infectious even among Russians. If you find someone that doesn't like it, don't let it bother you (and don't let it show).

Russians are kind of like spoiled children who don't know how to play with others (foreigners). They are highly xenophobic and foreigners (especially Americans) have little or no credibility here...they know everything. This is why foreign investment is leaving here...which doesn't help their flailing economy at all.

You have to be thick skinned to survive here...going with the flow also helps a lot. It's 100% correct that this place isn't for everyone, but if you have a good sense of humor, this place can be a lot of fun. At the same time, if you've had your fill, it's time to move on because things won't get any better for you at this point.