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jgmodlin
Joined: 01 Mar 2006
Posts: 120
Location: USA
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 Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:34 pm Post subject: bringing a non-teaching spouse? |
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From looking at some of the other posts, it looks like many here are not keen on the idea of bringing along a spouse to the kingdom. I was wondering if anyone could weigh in who has done so and share their experience. My wife is Japanese, and with an infant on the way would actually not mind not working for a year or two. Here in Virginia on my public high school teacher's salary that is not a great option for us. However without accomodation to pay for and a tax-free salary, I would guess that I could do better than my take home from a $40,000 a year job here in the USA with all the taxes and auto costs driving my disposable income down.
I have seen many of the jobs advertised mentioning accomodations but they never really mention whether or not they would be suitable for a couple or small family. Would most of these accomodations be in compounds or amongst the locals? Are they really small and crummy? In Japan much of the housing is miniscule and looks like something you'd see in the projects in many American cities.
Without a masters I realize some of the choicest positions might not be available, but surely a state licensed teacher K-12 with previous TEFL experience (8 years in Japan), would count for something. Any thoughts would be welcome! |
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trapezius
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Land of Culture of Death & Destruction
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| Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, housing provided is suitable for families, and usually fairly spacious.
If you are a certified teacher, you can teach in any of the Western-managed (American/British) schools in Saudi. Of course, you can also teach in the colleges/universities. Choice is yours.
As for bringing a spouse to Saudi, I can't comment on that. I actually met my spouse here!  But yes, if a woman is educated and doesn't have a job here, it can get pretty dismal. However, with a child on the way, she should be fruitfully occupied for at least the next couple of years! Otherwise, it would be bad.
Congrats on being a father soon!
Good luck! |
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redeyes
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 254
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:28 am Post subject: |
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I am in the same position as you, O/P, and I have received some really excellent advice and information via PM's from the regular posters here, which helped me and my wife a lot in our decisions -- the general impression I get is that it is certainly a real challenge to say the least, to bring a wife to Saudi, and that much depends on the wife's ethnicity, character, age, qualifications,stoic ability to bear with really trying situations etc.
Some of the questions that arose and were answered in my PM conversations were : is your wife young enough to get bored fast and therefore not weather the dullness? Is she likely to be focussing on child rearing? Is she qualified enough to perhaps get a part time job in a college? ( EG is she a trained teacher too)Will her ethnicity make a difference as to how locals react to her?How motivated are you both to really work on it and get over the boredom threshold and the limitations? |
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Never Ceased To Be Amazed
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 3500
Location: Shhh...don't talk to me...I'm playin' dead...
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:23 am Post subject: |
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Teaching in the USA sux. usually, I say "Saudi sux"...AND IT DOES. But that being said, ever since I left the US in 1990 for the JET program(me) (I have a Japanese spouse as well ), I've never looked back except for buying a house outright from my Saudi earnings. No taxes and provided housing on a compound meant a lot, but I worked military programs...days of which are mostly over.
Some unsolicited advice...give up the idea on Saudi...it really isn't worth the headache. Go back to Japan, let your wife have the child in her home country, get a short-term job at an Eikaiwa (I worked NOVA like a tool!), get your Master's at either Columbia or Temple, and come to the Middle East in a country you can appreciate. I worked and worked in Saudi and avoided death on the roads. It got me a house and taught me how to drink...a zero sum gain. I work next door to Saudi now and make more than I ever imagined in Saudi. All it took was an itty-bitty Master's.
NCTBA |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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People complain about a lot of things in KSA, but the size of their accommodation is usually not one of them. Apartments here tend to be very spacious, perhaps because Saudis usually have large families. Of course, it is possible that you could still be stuck in a cramped flat, but it's unlikely.
As to where you would live, it all depends on the employer. You might be in a compound or in a suburban apartment block. However, as a male you probably would have the option of taking rent allowance and living outside your employer-supplied accommodation. It would probably be best to wait until you've become at least semi-familiar with the city before moving out, however. |
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jgmodlin
Joined: 01 Mar 2006
Posts: 120
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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However, with a child on the way, she should be fruitfully occupied for at least the next couple of years! Otherwise, it would be bad.
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My wife does work here in the USA for a Japanese company in customer service. However, she has said she wouldn't mind at all not working during our child's early years. Not to stereotype Japanese women too much, but there it is pretty common for many, if not most, to drop out of the work place after kids are born. I am pretty neutral on the subject and am more driven by what's most practical financially. That's one of the reasons why Saudi looks appealing to me.
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| Will her ethnicity make a difference as to how locals react to her? |
I hadn't really thought about this one. I have heard that in some of the other Asian countries (not Japan) non-Asian men experience some hostility from the local Asian men when they are seen with an Asian woman. This seems to happen regardless of whether or not the woman is even from that country. My wife is pretty fair and I would guess the average Saudi would just assume she were Japanese or possibly Korean or Chinese. Would she be treated differently than western expats?
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| Teaching in the USA sux. usually, I say "Saudi sux"...AND IT DOES. But that being said, ever since I left the US in 1990 for the JET program(me) (I have a Japanese spouse as well ), I've never looked back except for buying a house outright from my Saudi earnings. |
I really appreciate your perspective as a person who has a pretty similar situation. My wife was the best thing that happened to me in Japan, and I had a lot of good experiences there  I have definitely been planning to pursue a Master's in Linguistic Arts or TESOL. I had actually thought I might be able to do that through distance learning from a major university from the USA while living in the Middle East. I figured I would have more time and fewer distractions and a better cash situation to allow it. With my wife not working either I would not have to be quite as involved with baby care as I would were she working too in the USA.
I have considered a return to Japan and the idea of pursuing a Master's from Temple University in Tokyo or distance learning. There are two possible drawbacks to Japan: one being the economy and the other being the hectic schedule I would end up having to work to make ends meet over there. I also saved a pretty good chunk of change while in Japan, but to do this I had to leave the house at 6:30 in the morning and not get home until after 9:00 each night. My day consisted of a marathon of company lessons and private coffee shop lessons sometime to return to another private student at my home. It was exhausting and resulted in an average of about $3500 to $4000 take home.
The economy has also tanked recently in a big way in Japan. Yesterday the government announced that Japan's GDP shrank by more than 12% annualized in the final quarter of '08. Yikes! The minister of finance is calling it the worst economic crisis since WW2. This has translated into many out of work and many eikaiwas laying off or going under, such as NOVA (although that one had been coming for a while).
So, I am hoping that Saudi Arabia would offer a more stable work environment with a less tiring schedule than the subways and trains of Tokyo from before dawn to well after dark.
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People complain about a lot of things in KSA, but the size of their accommodation is usually not one of them. Apartments here tend to be very spacious, perhaps because Saudis usually have large families. Of course, it is possible that you could still be stuck in a cramped flat, but it's unlikely.
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That sounds really good! I lived in a one bedroom apartment with a separate small living room and separate kitchen/dining area with my wife while I lived in the suburbs of Tokyo. In the same units on either side of me were families with one and two children! I would have lost it if I had to endure that apartment with a kid too. Fortunately it sounds like apartments are nicer in respect to size in Saudi. Is it safe enough living outside of compounds? Obviously there is the specter of terrorism lurking in the minds of many living outside the kingdom. Is that silly and akin to worrying about flying because the plane could crash? Would there be non-terrorism issues to worry about such as petty crime or any sexual crimes against the wife?
Lastly, are you able to get out from time to time and go for a picnic at a scenic place? Do most teachers own cars? Can you travel around safely and freely outside the city for day trips?
Oh and NCTBA, you said the military gigs are mostly finished. Are some still around and would they be preferable to international schools or colleges?
Thanks for so much great advice from you all. I am hoping to get something going for the fall after our baby is born later this spring. |
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Mia Xanthi
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 955
Location: why is my heart still in the Middle East while the rest of me isn't?
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Would she be treated differently than Caucasian expats? |
Sadly, yes. Many here will assume she is a housemaid, and still others will assume she is a prostitute. Sorry to tell you this.
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| Is that silly and akin to worrying about flying because the plane could crash? |
For the most part, yes. I'll probably get blown to smithereens by a suicide bomber tomorrow for saying this, but life here is not really that dangerous. The chances that anything will happen to YOU are laughably small.
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| Would there be non-terrorism issues to worry about such as petty crime or any sexual crimes against the wife? |
The wife will not be able to go out by herself. She will have to be in your company or in the company of a group of women. Under those circumstances, there is no threat. However, petty crime is another matter. There is a great deal of it here, and you will have to take the usual precautions.
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Lastly, are you able to get out from time to time and go for a picnic at a scenic place? |
This is Saudi Arabia. There are no scenic places.  |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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"....no scenic places...."
Mia Xanthi has spent too long in the Malls of Eastern Province. KSA is a big country and full of places worth seeing.
Of course 99 percent of "expats" here never see anything but the road from their compound to the airport. |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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The wife will not be able to go out by herself. She will have to be in your company or in the company of a group of women |
I don't know how things are in the EP, where Mia lives, but this advice does not apply in Riyadh. It is perfectly safe for women of all ethnicities to go out alone in Riyadh. I have been doing so for several years, without incident. Yes, you can get hassled by young men in cars, but this is annoying rather than dangerous. Nor would being in a group of women prevent this - in fact, it might even attract more attention, though at least you would have moral support!
I would also respectfully disagree with her assertion that there is a 'great deal' of petty crime in KSA. Obviously, we all rely on anecdotal evidence to assess this sort of thing, but in my 7 years of living here I can recall few, if any, incidents of petty crime. Nor have I heard more than a handful of such stories. I am not saying that it doesn't happen, but no need to be alarmist.
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| My wife is pretty fair and I would guess the average Saudi would just assume she were Japanese or possibly Korean or Chinese. Would she be treated differently than western expats? |
As Mia said, unfortunately many Saudis would assume she was a Philipino housemaid.
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| So, I am hoping that Saudi Arabia would offer a more stable work environment with a less tiring schedule than the subways and trains of Tokyo from before dawn to well after dark. |
One good thing about KSA is that workloads are rarely overly taxing, certainly not when compared to Japan. If you get a job in one of the better third level institutions (for which you'd probably - though not always - need that MA) you can expect to finish in the early afternoon - some places only require teachers to be on campus for their teaching and office hours.
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| Obviously there is the specter of terrorism lurking in the minds of many living outside the kingdom. Is that silly and akin to worrying about flying because the plane could crash? |
"The specter of terrorism" is not something to which I or any of my friends gives the remotest thought. It has been a few years since the spate of attacks against foreigners in the Kingdom, and life has been pretty uneventful in that regard since then. OF course, nobody knows if and when such attacks might start up again, but for the moment, I would not say that terrorism is a major concern here. |
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trapezius
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Land of Culture of Death & Destruction
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Not to stereotype Japanese women too much, but there it is pretty common for many, if not most, to drop out of the work place after kids are born. |
Well, I am glad they do. With the way kids are raised in many parts of the developed world, it is good to know that Japanese women still prefer to raise their kids themselves.
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| I am pretty neutral on the subject and am more driven by what's most practical financially. |
Not to be preachy, but you should also think about your baby here. Financially, it would be best for your wife to work even after the baby is born, but that's not the best for the baby. Babies are babies only for a few years, and they learn the vast majority of their morals, habits, manners, eating habits, and knowledge about the world in those first few years. Leaving a baby to an uneducated nanny/maid is not the best thing, as anybody knows. In fact, I would call it 'passive child abuse/neglect'. |
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jgmodlin
Joined: 01 Mar 2006
Posts: 120
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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I am with you on that! I think that while extra money might be nice for the family it wouldn't if it came it at the cost of a child's formative years being spent with others that don't have the child's best interests at heart. I realize many don't have that luxury, but I hope to avoid that for us. Just had another ultrasound today - a wonder to see that new life developing.
Any thoughts as to whether living away from the distractions of western life would give more time to pursue a Master's Degree? It seems like it might be easier there than here, what with my regular high school teaching job and the night job that I have to work to be able to save money. I am planning to do a Master's in TESOL or Linguistic Arts online through a regular name state university. |
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trapezius
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Land of Culture of Death & Destruction
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| Any thoughts as to whether living away from the distractions of western life would give more time to pursue a Master's Degree? |
Definitely, it would be a lot easier. Life is very slow in Saudi, and there isn't a tenth as much to do here as in, say, Japan, Korea, any Western country, or even the UAE.
Good luck!
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| Just had another ultrasound today - a wonder to see that new life developing. |
Tell me about it... going through the same now Will be a father in 4 weeks  |
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jgmodlin
Joined: 01 Mar 2006
Posts: 120
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:50 am Post subject: |
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| congrats on your first! Mine too... Do you anticipate any troubles getting your home country passport and citizenship paperwork lined up for your child? |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Any thoughts as to whether living away from the distractions of western life would give more time to pursue a Master's Degree? |
Many people find that KSA is the ideal place to pursue online studies for precisely the reasons you mention. HOwever, before you decide, bear in mind that some countries - including many in the Gulf - do not recognise Master's Degrees obtained via distance learning. |
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jgmodlin
Joined: 01 Mar 2006
Posts: 120
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| I have heard that before about some institutions not accepting online degrees. This might be another topic entirely, but if a degree is obtained from let's say the University of Florida (my Alma mater for undergrad and obtained on the ground there), I am not sure how it would be determined that the degree was pursued online. On the other hand I could see where if someone gets a degree from the University of Phoenix or the University of TEFL, any employer would know immediately. Many well known universities now have online programs which vary in their requirements for presence on campus. Wouldn't a degree from the University of Maryland or the University of Wisconsin just be seen as a degree? |
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