Job Discussion Forums

[mk123]

Hi everyone. This is my first post here so please forgive any faux pas. I am an American woman in my mid 20's and I'm thinking of going to Vietnam this summer to take a CELTA and then teach. So my question is about living in Vietnam as a western woman - for you women ESL teachers out there, how do you find living in Vietnam? Are there really very few women teaching ESL in Vietnam as some other posts suggest? Why are the women staying away - is there a good reason?

I've seen some posts about teachers feeling like people are always touching then or grabbing them on the street, is this common?

Also, I was wondering if anyone had any opinions about the Hanoi/HCMC debate? I have already seen that there are of course many opinions about this, but I was wondering if women find one easier to live in than the other and if so, why?

I really appreciate any feedback!

[mcsensei]

My school has lots of female teachers. I would guess around 40 percent are women. Also, notably, many of the trainers, coordinators, and managers at my school are women, which suggets that some them have been here for a while.

[ajc19810]

I wouldnt say women are staying away in fact quite the opposite I have noticed a considerable increase in the amount of women teaching here.

Traditionally Vietnam has been a place for the boys as it really is a paradise for us especially for those who like to party. Cheap booze and cigarettes, gorgeous girls who prefer older men, cruising round on motos and pretty much doing what we like. Check out the teaching crowd in Thailand, cambodia for example its the same deal.

Also as like many other parts of Asia, Vietnam is still very male dominated. Traditional gender roles are still in place however they are being redefined every day. Personally this is one of the reasons I love to live in Vietnam, because there is no such thing called 'PC', others will disagree.

Vietnamese people love to touch you and each other, but it is a show of affection that can take a little getting used to. Boys touching each other legs when drinking beers, girls holding hands, street sellers grabbing your shirt as you walk past their shop, checking your tattoo to see if they're real, boys holding onto each others waist on motos, there are millions of examples. It has nothing to do with sexual orientation or groping you, well maybe it does I cant be to sure.

Qualified American female, mid 20's, a language centers dream.

[mk123]

It's so nice to be misinformed sometimes

Thank you both!

I'd love to hear about if there are certain things one should avoid doing or saying that might not be too intuitive to an American - that is to say, will I offend anyone terribly or be making an unwitting pass at someone if I.....???

Also, I hear Hanoi is more conservative than HCMC. In other posts this has been spoken of as having to do with the earlier closing time, and also the ability to save money. What about culturally conservative? Is there a difference in attitude toward foreigners? Women foreigners?

I know it's hard to make such sweeping statements about the people in a city, but I appreciate the ideas/suggestions.

[inky]

I think there's a danger that you're making too much of an issue of this. Vietnam is generally regarded as one of the safest places to travel/live for anyone, and in particular for Americans (ironically). I agree with much of what ajc has written, and I often agree with him, but I take strong exception to his comparison of Vietnam with Cambodia and Thailand in terms of attracting the scum who move here to party and use teaching jobs as a way to fund that partying. There may be a small %age of teachers in Saigon who have that attitude, and a smaller number in Hanoi, but overall Vietnam is not viewed as a sexpat paradise.

You will have very few problems here compared with most of the rest of the world, with the exception of Vatican City.

[mk123]

Thanks. Your replies have all been very helpful. I'm very excited about going to Vietnam and just wanted some opinions on these aspects of life in Vietnam. I've traveled a lot, and I think it's important to know what kinds
potentially difficult cultural situations you may find yourself in - as much as that can be known before hand (not much). And I think it's also important to recognize that women and men can face different challenges when traveling. That said, I feel confident about my choice to go to Vietnam, and hope that I did not come across as paranoid about safety. As with anywhere in the world, there's only so much you can do.

AND given that it is -6F here in Chicago today, I wish I was in Vietnam already! (Brrrr)

[ajc19810]

Inky, how did you get out of what I said that people that come here are scum or use vietnam as a sexpat pardise.?

Teaching is a male dominated profession in all of these countries and the factors that I mentioned above all contribute to why that is. I love vietnam for all the reasons I mentioned above, who doesn't? It doesnt need to be taken as a negative. I'm, sure that there is only a small percentage who think of Vietnam as the way you described, but I also think there is a huge percentage who love the fact that having a drink here is cheap, buying a pack of smokes costs only $1 compared to $12 at home and that women here take care of themselves and as a result look stunning.

I love partying and teaching in Vietnam. I'm not scum (well I hope not). Relax man!! Lifes good.

Inky's spot on 'you're looking too much into it'.

[inky]

Sorry, touchy subject for me; I guess I overreacted to your comment.

[blateson]

Wow. I can't believe my eyes. There probably has been a numerical increase in the number of younger females, but how long they last, and whether they like it, may be another statistic.

HCMC and most of Vietnam is pretty dead regarding fun and excitement. Most things and places close up by 9pm, and last time I checked there are still laws on the books that drinking bars must close by midnight. Then you always have to "look out" for the police around these times. Lame, if you ask me. Do you want to enjoy your beer and think life is free and good, or say to yourself "it's almost 11:00, need to wrap up soon." That's my take.

Firstly I've never regarded Vietnam as a paradise for any foreigner of any category. It isn't a place to party. The women here may look decent, but they are unavailable except for the major troublemakers that lie, steal, and blackmail. I would agree however that Vietnamese go way overboard with touching you, rubbing up on you, and bumping you out of the way -- establishments here have little space and lots of people, so that's how they like to do it... If you are a guy, local males here will feel compelled to put their hands on your legs or massage your back while trying to fervently practice their english, as mentioned. Uncomfortable stuff, if you ask me. "Boys touching each other legs when drinking beers, holding onto each others waist on motos, there are millions of examples." Agreed. It's the worst I've ever seen.

mk123, if you are coming to Vietnam then that's fine. But don't only go to message forums to get pertinent information for making such a choice.

inky, you're right, the Vietnamese are overly protective of their females and when they do allow foreigners to touch, they bilk and rob them at any chance. They'll steal all of your belongings when the opportunity arises. However inky, if you were implying that Vietnam attracts "good" foreigners while Thailand and Cambodia gets the "bad", I would disagree. Quite the opposite, Thailand and Cambodia have more advanced foreign expats (especially outside of ESL) than Vietnam because there's more opportunity, development, and things to do there. Just because a foreigner in Vietnam is a well behaved "esl teacher" does not make him a wonderful person.

[inky]

[blateson]

[khmerhit]

tired of touch-feely Vietnam? Why not




















Cambodia???? Try iy and see

[timservo]

I disagree entirely that the profession here in VN is dominated by men. The administrators, owners and bosses are all men, certainly. The culture is male-dominated, certainly. But the teachers in the Vietnamese schools are almost exclusively women. It is one of the professions which have always been considered "acceptable" for women the world over, along with waitress, nanny, secretary, teller, nurse and other similar low-paying ghettoes. My students at the language centers are frank in telling me that I am the only man teacher they have ever had, especially if they are from the provinces, where men teachers are unknown.

I will also tell you that, as a man in a female profession (for so the students perceive it) I get Rodney Dangerfield (no respect!) from my students. Just ask how many of the boys or men in your classes are or will become teachers. They will find the very idea ludicrous, as if you had asked how many of them intended to become mothers. You can extrapolate from this their impression of you for having chosen this profession.

They will love a young American female for their teacher. They will glom onto you, young and old, male and female, so get used to it.They like to tug on your hair (the arm in my case!) as it is likely to be very different from theirs. You will remind them of their mothers, only more exotically beautiful.

I agree Vietnam is very safe for women, or people generally, aside from the occasional petty thief. Keep EVERYTHING OUT of SIGHT at all times, especially when in crowds or on motorbikes. Which is all the time. Don't wear watches, cameras, jewelry, chains, necklaces. Don't carry a purse. However dishonest the locals may be, there is just not the level of violence that Americans anyway take for granted. No guns.

Viet Nam has a history of heroic women, from Hai Ba Trung (the two Trung sisters) to the women VC cadres. It is my impression that women are actually treated much more equally here than in other Asian cultures,
although as a man and a foreigner it is infinitely possible that I have no idea what the experience of the VN woman is. A lot of more-or-less sanctioned domestic violence takes place behind closed doors which is now being more publicly hinted at.

VN is not Thailand or Cambodia. Think Gary Glitter. The authorities are quite serious about sex tourism and are fundamentally extremely conservative. Censored magazines and films, no nudity of even the mild variety accepted in the West or some other Asian countries.

Most expats find HCMC more appealing. It is more accustomed to foreigners, and the people are incredibly friendly. It is hot as hell, year round. It is also the mega-city from hell: traffic jams, pollution, noise, prices. Ha Noi is much, much older, more "pure" Viet Nam. It seemed to me more charming. The weather is terrible, hot in summer, cold in winter. The people are much more reserved, and some believe them to be genuinely hostile to foreigners and southern Vietnamese.

It's an American man's viewpoint, but I'm married to a Vietnamese and have taught here for more than three years, so for what it's worth!

[mjc_mjc]