Job Discussion Forums

[shenyanggerry]

I've had at least three 'Z' visas from two different universities in China. I've never had to provide a police check. I did however, have to provide one so I could be a volunteer in Canada.

[Jayray]

[xiao51]

[rmcdougall]

This whole check can be delayed indefinately until the end of your contract.

I think......

[evaforsure]

[bearcanada]

RMcDougall wrote: "I heard there was a clause that if the foreign expert is over 60 he can avoid the harassment charges and stuff to continue to get the visa. Right??"

Wrong. A foreigner who is 60 or over is normally denied a Work Permit, and therefore no Z visa and no residence permit either. It is sometimes possible to effectively obtain an appeal by completing a form that is called something like "Extending one's working career", in which one states the reasons for working beyond normal retirement and where the prospective employer outlines the need for this foreign expert. If the Labor Office buys the arguments, you can get your letter of invitation and work permit. Without that, you're SOL.

And I think it would be appropriate to point out that the requirement for a criminal check is neither 'undemocratic' nor unreasonable, and sure as hell does not constitute 'charges and harrassment'.

Have you ever tried to get into your own country (the US of A)? You want troubles and intrusive checks? Shit. It's easier to get a work permit for China than to pass through US customs as a tourist, much less to want to work there.

Sounds to me like you have something rather strong in your (recent) past that you want to hide. Is that why you came to China? Wouldn't be the first time.

.

[evaforsure]

[sojourner]

Quotation from Bearcanada's posting : ' RMcDougall wrote: "I heard there was a clause that if the foreign expert is over 60 he can avoid the harassment charges and stuff to continue to get the visa. Right??"

' Wrong. A foreigner who is 60 or over is normally denied a Work Permit, and therefore no Z visa and no residence permit either. It is sometimes possible to effectively obtain an appeal by completing a form that is called something like "Extending one's working career", in which one states the reasons for working beyond normal retirement and where the prospective employer outlines the need for this foreign expert. If the Labor Office buys the arguments, you can get your letter of invitation and work permit. Without that, you're SOL. '

- ----------------------------------------------------------

Bearcanada,

I have been in China for 6 years and am aged 63 years. Since I turned 60, I have worked at two universities - in Sichuan and Zhejiang. Just before I turned 63,my current (Zhejiang) uni invited me to to stay on for another year - they were so keen to "keep me" that I was able to negotiate from an advantageous position; and, thus, got them to provide me with some extra goodies in the way of a salary increase (but less hours !) , 12 monthly salary payments p.a. and an increase in my airticket allowance.So much for being "disadvantaged" because of my age ! There is another FT of about the same age - who, incidently, first arrived in China aged 61 - and he was also invited to extend his contract. In both our cases, we were not asked to complete an "Extending One's Working Career" form. The paper work involved for both of us appeared to be exactly the same as for our younger colleagues. I have a friend of the same age as me who after an 18 month break recently returned to China to take up a uni job somewhere in the NE.

Where exactly did you hear about people 60+ being "normally" denied "work permits" ? From another EFL forum (which happens to thrive on rumour-mongering to a far greater extent than is the case with Dave's ESLCafe ! ), some drunken loser in an expat bar, or what ? Admitedly, over the past few months I have come across a number of rumours - rather than substantial evidence - regarding (supposed) age limits - sometimes 60, sometimes 65. Sometimes the rumours give one the impression that the (supposed) age limits apply only to certain areas of the country, eg Shanghai and Guandong. Maybe there ARE references to age limits in the regulations, but it doesn't mean that these rules are always applied. I suppose that such rules are analogous to the "5-year Rule" - eg, something that can be evoked should an employer find it necessary not to re-engage someone that the leaders deem to be a troublemaker or incompetent. Regarding the aforementioned official form, maybe it DOES exist - but I have never been asked to complete one. (Possibly, it is something that is meant to be completed only by the FAO ). The point that I'm trying to make is that since turning 60 I have never experienced any problems whatsover in getting work, extending my contract, or with the official paper work re visas, FECs, etc). Possibly, one of the other "oldies" to these fora (eg, "BRSmith") might want to comment re the matter of 60+ FTs having trouble in getting "work permits".

Regarding your other point, I agree that there is considerable merit in the Chinese authorities insisting on a criminal background check. News about there being "plenty of work", slack administrative procedures re the checking of one's academic qualifications, along with reports of cheap beer and the (supposed) availability of unattached/friendly/attractive young females might be a little too much for unsavoury loser-types with dodgy backgrounds to ignore ! Of particular concern is the possibility of people in the West who have convictions for paedaphilic (sp?) offences who are contemplating applying for teaching jobs in China's primary/middle school sectors - thus, China needs to get it's act together re the checking of the backgrounds of all prospective FTs.

Peter

[evaforsure]

[sojourner]

Quotation from "rmcdougall" : "I heard there was a clause that if the foreign expert is over 60 he can avoid the harassment charges and stuff to continue to get the visa. Right??"

Why should FTs aged 60+ be exempt from any criminal background check ? It's not just younger people who not only have a criminal background - but, who may STILL pose a threat to society.

I believe that in some Western countries, some offences become "spent" (I'm not sure of the exact term) after a certain period of time - thus, if one had committed a relatively minor offence during his/her youth, one's record would appear "clean" by the time such a person reached middle age;provided, that the person had lived a law abiding life since that one offence dating back 20-30 years. Fair enough.

But certain offences will always remain "on one's record", in particular those of a sexual nature involving young children. Shouldn't the Chinese authorities be in a position to take the necessary steps to protect its most vulnerable citizens ? In many Western countries, the authorities put all applicants for jobs involving having access to young people through a stringent screening process - why not China ?

Peter

[Peter Wales]

[bearcanada]

Sojourner, the insults aren't necessary; I no more accept advice from drunks in bars than you do. It is true that the regulations are applied unevenly in China and I believe that would account for your experience of a hassle-free work permit.

But in some areas - for sure Shanghai is one - the facts are indeed facts and are precisely as I have stated them above. If you are 60 or over, you will have to complete that extra form and both you and your employer will have to do a bit of a selling job on the Labor Offcie. And there are no guarantees that you'll succeed.

Some areas of the country have a surplus of foreign labor and some have a dearth. In a small town in Ningxia you could probably be 73 years old with no degree or certificate and still get a work permit. But you won't do it in the large centers.

.

[mike w]