Job Discussion Forums

elwood · Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 11

I'm looking for some insight here everyone.I have a hard time being succinct, so bear with me. I'm not currently living in Japan but have been offered an English teaching position at an Eikaiwa school there. So, I've been carefully looking over the contract and asking the boss questions about it (overtime pay, health insurance, apartment info, teaching responsibilities, vacation time, and the policy regarding canceling a contract). The cancellation policy is 3 months and I commented that that seemed a little long. Perhaps this wasn't wise? I plan to stay the entire year, it's just that a 3 months notice seems foreign to me.I guess it is another country. I just finished reading some posts though and it seems like 3 months is pretty typical.

So I asked for the email of one teacher and the boss was more than willing to provide it. Then I asked the boss some more questions about the contract and also asked for another teacher's email. Then the boss responded by saying that he feels like I don't trust him. It seemed to upset him and he asked why I was so doubtful. Anyways, it's not that I'm doubtful or don't trust him, I just like to be as informed as possible before I make a big decision to move abroad. I feel I have the right and responsibility to be inquisitive. So, I was wondering if anyone else has experienced a potential boss reacting like this? Could it be that asking an employer a lot of questions about the contract is frowned upon in Japan?

I really enjoyed the phone interview, the contract seems fair and I like the overall academic philosophy of the school, so I'm still excited about the position. I was just surprised that my thoroughness with regards to making a decision bothered him. Perhaps because he seemed to know right away that I would be a good fit for the company but my style has always been to heavily weigh the pros and cons. I felt bad that me trying to balance everything out may have offended him. But How much attention should I give to his reaction? Maybe for the future, if this doesn't work out, there are cultural things I should be more aware of when discussing my contract with an employer? Thanks for taking the time to read this, much appreciated.

GIR · Joined: 12 Apr 2007 Posts: 64

Was the school owner Japanese or foreign?

fluffyhamster · Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:28 am Post subject:

Yes, it sounds like you are being a bit too cautious. Apart from the notice required, you haven't mentioned anything else that's struck you as untoward in the contract or dealings so far with the school and its boss. Of course, don't ever be railroaded into anything, but if you're still appearing unsure/unconvinced to this boss after he's answered presumably most of your main concerns, he surely has a right to question if you're still genuinely interested or not. I doubt if he's that upset or offended, but is rather probably just intimating that he can only invest so much time in trying to secure your labour. Basically, fish, or cut bait.

Apsara · Joined: 20 Sep 2005 Posts: 2142 Location: Tokyo, Japan

I agree with fluffyhamster, asking all those questions and for the email of a former teacher all in one go was probably a bit much for the interviewer. While you do have a right to be cautious, they may end up with the impression that you could cause trouble/think they have spent enough time on you already and pick a less cautious applicant.

J. · Joined: 03 May 2003 Posts: 327

like a Japanese boss and you were acting typically like a North American who will be uprooting your whole life to work abroad on scanty information. There's a BIG level of trust and courage required to make a step like that, but probably your boss has lived and worked his/her whole life within a pretty small radius in Japan, so has no conception of what you will be doing. Reversed, it is a situation that many if not most Japanese would never contemplate.

But it may reassure you to know that though there are some really bad bosses in the eikaiwa industry, the majority of Japanese bosses take the responsibility to take care of their emplyees very seriously, and even treat them as family, after the have been working there awhile and proved themselves. However, it's a family where what the father/mother says goes, and where that parent tends to be sensitive about being questioned, so you'd be best advised to save your other questions for whatever teachers you can contact, take your courage in hand and make a leap of faith, once you have decided on a contract. Either it will be a good experience or not, but that won't depend completely on your work, but on how you adapt to the culture and how flexible and open-minded you are. You will be sure to learn a lot and come home a wiser person. Or like many, you might just find you like it enough to stay.

Good luck!

live.rust · Joined: 10 Dec 2007 Posts: 5

"I am providing two weeks' notice of termination of employment. [...] In accordance with Article 23 of the Labour Standards Law of Japan, I expect to receive all outstanding wages, tax forms, and a certificate of employment within seven days of my last working day."

I faxed, e-mailed, and mailed this to my eikaiwa's head office when they proved to be the sketchy mess I feared they would be. They were seething with anger because I made it clear that I knew the law, I knew their contract which threatened to seek damages without giving 4 (!) months' prior notice was technically illegal and patently unenforceable as they would need to provide evidence in court that my quitting caused significant profit loss.

I remained terse for those final two weeks. I actually received my last full paycheck, in cash, on my last working day. They did not try *any* funny business. This is the Labour Law of Japan, and it overrides whatever multi-month nonsense your employer makes you sign. It must be some kind of standard lingo to keep flighty or wary teachers uncertain about quitting. Furthermore, there is nothing they can do to revoke your SHIS visa - you didn't do anything wrong, and they'd need to prove that. It's yours, and you're free to work somewhere else until that visa expires. Though the Monday you probably have free would be a good time to arrange alternative employment before giving the two weeks.

Now, don't fret - I do believe this is a standard, however shadowy, contract clause in the eikaiwa business, and your job might be great. I will tell you myself that my job was a dream and I had no intention of quitting, only until the manager was replaced and all Japanese hell rained down upon my poor un-Japanese soul. You've got to be prepared for the worst when packing it up to work in a foreign country - I wasn't, and I only learned this in the country after research and personal networking. Forewarned is forearmed.

Addendum: The "must be" and "I do believe" are perfect examples of why you shouldn't trust some stranger on the internet with such serious matters, but here's a link to the actual law, where you can see the 2 weeks and the last paycheck procedures for yourself: http://www.tfemploy.go.jp/en/spec/spec_1c.html

wayne432 · Joined: 05 Jun 2008 Posts: 255

While you are correct that you are to receive all outstanding payments due to you within 7 days of your last day of work, you are a bit off in regards to quitting.

From the web page you linked to

live.rust · Joined: 10 Dec 2007 Posts: 5

here's the link I should've provided -

http://www.ilo.org/dyn/natlex/docs/WEBTEXT/27776/64846/E95JPN01.htm#a013

wayne432 · Joined: 05 Jun 2008 Posts: 255

fluffyhamster · Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:28 pm Post subject:

I don't want to get into the (il)legal technicalities of contracts in Japan, but rather, just generally say (to "link back" to the "original topic") that months of required quitting notice isn't necessarily an indication of a bad school/high teacher turnover, but an unavoidable consequence of schools sometimes having to hire from overseas (that is, if suitable candidates already in Japan and ideally in possession of a work-able visa can't be found, it can take quite a while to secure a Certificate of Entitlement etc for the overseas or still tourist-status job applicant) - I mean, unless a job turns out to be awful, why would any conscientious teacher want to quit much quicker than a school term? I think that where a job is reasonable/the employer living up to their side of the contract, employees should try to honour the terms of the contract no matter how wrong they may appear in an abstract/"far-removed, distant"/"absolute" sense.

A similar discussion where I chimed in with similar opinions to those I've spouted above:
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=68387

Also kinda related:
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=62888

There are probably other threads too, for those who want to read more on such matters (if so, do a search or two).

J. · Joined: 03 May 2003 Posts: 327

live. rust, wayne, and fluffyhamster are these posts in the wrong thread? I can't see what they have to do with the original topic.

Mod edit required?

Apsara · Joined: 20 Sep 2005 Posts: 2142 Location: Tokyo, Japan

The comments seem to be related to the "3 months notice required" contract clause that the OP mentioned, so they are probably in the right place, it's just become a bit of a separate discussion.

elwood · Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 11

Thanks everyone for your comments. I appreciate your willingness to help. Unfortunately the questions I posed for my boss, maybe a little excessive, has resulted in him not hiring me. He just emailed and said that he has never encountered someone with such wariness as myself. I do admit to asking lots of questions about my role, the environment of the school and the details of my contract, but I never really saw this as being wary, just wanting to be informed for my own well-being.

He stated that he gave me enough information and that he and his Japanese staff now doubt my ability to have a relationship with them. He said that he cannot wait around any longer for me to make a decision. I think he needs to fill this position urgently. We interviewed last Thursday then he offered me a contract on Friday. This position starts April 15th and I'm sure the Visa process needs to be started ASAP. Anyways, I was kinda bummed, but oh well. Life could be a lot worse. I still value my responsibility to be as informed as possible when making a decision. Perhaps I was being too demanding, but It didn't feel any different than the decision making process I use while accepting a job in the States. Maybe that's the ignorant side of me talking, making the assumption that another place will function like my own country. Isn't there a fancy sociological term for that? Anyways, thanks again everyone!

mc · Joined: 20 Jan 2003 Posts: 90 Location: Aichi, Japan

Yeah, you probably came off as a bit high-maintenance. They might have been worried that you'd continue to question every single thing after arriving in Japan or that they'd have to spend excessive amounts of time coddling you....

J. · Joined: 03 May 2003 Posts: 327

It's a bad sign when a boss needs to fill a job that suddenly. It usually means they are disorganized or someone left suddenly because they couldn't stand the place. Of course, there could be an exception, like someone leaving due to illness at home or something like that, but from what you've said about what he said, and how he said it, I think you are well out of this particular situation.

Next time go in a little more low-key but also be wary of very defensive sounding responses. It's just a small taste of what you would have to put up with on a daily basis when you were there. Look for more flexibility and a friendlier atmosphere; it will make your life in Japan a lot more pleasant.