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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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 Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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I rather doubt too many people would be much inclined (or able) to jump through all the hoops you described.
Moreover, do you think it would make a difference at all if your employer has a fair amount of wasta (as employers so often do?)
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If people roll over they can hardly blame the system. Don't you think there are the same hoops to jump through in the US or Europe?
As for wasta it won't make a difference when matters are clear cut. I have long advised people to sue at the first opportunity. Instead they hang off and end up having to walk or take it to court anyway. |
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freesoul
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
Posts: 240
Location: Waiting for my next destination
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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IT's rarely two years as described above. I know a Brit who dragged his employer into the Labour office maze in Jeddah. He had a strong case and managed to get loads of money and ENFORCIBLE NOC with release from his 'Qafeel'.
Now, the good thing is that the judge gave him a written permission in the early days of the case to seek freelance/part-time employment till the case is settled, since he was married with two kids.
Stephen Jones is absolutely right when he said that the greedy employers are quite aware of that tedious process and often count on the employees losing patience and eventually giving in. Sad, but true! |
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Mia Xanthi
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 955
Location: why is my heart still in the Middle East while the rest of me isn't?
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:16 am Post subject: |
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| Why is it that educated people with respectable jobs feel that they can spout any kind of rubbish when it comes to Saudi Arabia? |
Stephen, you made this comment, then proceeded to describe a system of redress that most of us would not have the time or energy or money to go through! Yes, there is technically a way to get your money from a Saudi, but they make it so difficult to do so that most people give up and get out....without the cash. I haven't yet seen anyone win in this game in the time that I have been here, and I have even seen a Saudi citizen trying to go through it. Thus, my original comment about "impunity" still stands. |
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Nashledanou
Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| freesoul wrote: |
Evans,
I wouldn't exactly say 'inferiority complex', I think they are just skeptical of everything that comes from the west with its different values, concepts and practices. It's absolutely unjustified to pass such a judgment. By doing so, we could fall into the usual trap of stereotyping, which is commonly considered nowadays an intercultural fault. It's like telling your students "in London, it�s always foggy"
Best |
Well, it's true. And it always rains too.
And all the Italians eat pasta and pizza. And all the Spaniards go to bullfights after dancing Flamenco.
It's all true. I've been around, you know. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:37 am Post subject: |
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Are you seriously suggesting Mia Xanthi that an English teacher hasn't got SR500 to pay an initial consultation with a lawyer (or is it the SR10 for the phone card to call the Consulate to get the list of telephone numbers that you think they don't have).
As for time, how much time does it take to go and see the lawyer, provide him with the necessary documents and then go to the Labour Office to register the power of attorney? Not much if you're talking about a couple of months salary or more.
You say you've never met somebody who succeeded. Guess what? the plural of anecdote isn't data. I know of people who've won cases here and in Kuwait (in the Saudi case he would have won it a lot quicker if he'd followed my advice and gone to court straight away instead of pissing around negotiating), and I've consulted with a lawyer together with colleagues who found just the threat of legal action was sufficient to get them what they were owed.
But some people revel in learned helplessness, and you could probably run classes in imparting it. |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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SJ
What percentage of just EFL teachers who have been screwed out of salary and benefits have managed to sue and win through the system?
Does it reach 1%? Does it even reach .05% Based on what I have seen on this board over the years I'd guess that it is under the smaller percent. (granted those that win may not come here)
The UAE and Oman have a less draconian system and I know only a handful who managed to use the legal system and win on this issue. Most people can't afford to stay in the country to wait it out... there is the issue of a work visa to be able to support themselves. They just give up and move on. The ones that I know that won were able to stay because they had an employed spouse with a benefits package.
I didn't see any mention by Mia of no one having the money for a consultation, but I know people in the Gulf who did the consultation, took one look at the process, and just threw up their hands and left.
VS |
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Nashledanou
Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| enoch83 wrote: |
| with hearing stories of other teachers not getting paid for 3 months, i have to wonder if i'll get paid at all lol. How can you stand firm about your pay? |
1) The Saudis have a strong sense of what's right and what's not.
2) This might seem to contradict my previous words. However: the best way to get something done, in KSA, is never to confront people as professionals who should (nay MUST) act as such, as is the Anglo-Saxon wont. The best way is to approach them personally, saying something along the lines of a very dignified "I've got a problem. Can you help me?". In other words, if you get them to sympathize with (but NOT pity) you whilst still respecting you, you'll be amazed at the lengths they'll go to to sort you out.
| Stephen Jones wrote: |
| some people revel in learned helplessness |
Sacrosanct. Somebody ought to print a shirt with these words on. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| What percentage of just EFL teachers who have been screwed out of salary and benefits have managed to sue and win through the system? |
Put it this way; of those that have sued the percentage of winners is near 100%
And of course of those that don't sue, the percentaget that win the court case is precisely zero.
The Saudi system is no more complicated than the the Spanish or British system. As there is at-will termination of contract in many American states the situation in the US is probably worse.
As I have said you need around three to six or seven thousand to sue, so the employer can merrily screw you out of less than that amount. And that amount is if you decide to leave the country and leave everything in the hands of a lawyer.
Incidentally, VS, glad to know that the fact you've never lived or worked in Saudi doesn't stop you from expressing your opinions on Saudi Labour Law. |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephen Jones wrote: |
| Incidentally, VS, glad to know that the fact you've never lived or worked in Saudi doesn't stop you from expressing your opinions on Saudi Labour Law. |
Rather like your giving comments and opinions all over these boards although my comment was related towards the Gulf in general since they have pretty much the same systems. You just have to read more carefully because now you have misinterpreted both Mia and me. Why are you being such a grouch lately... spending too much time with Scot47.  Perhaps it is the lack of breaks in this semester.
BTW... I've never known anyone who had an employment contract in the US. They are very rare... something only CEOs seem to get. So, it is a bit hard to compare the situation.
VS |
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Never Ceased To Be Amazed
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 3500
Location: Shhh...don't talk to me...I'm playin' dead...
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| Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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VS, SJ tends to be vague in his rebuffs. I 'memper a month or so ago that he would "disagree" with my feelings on Saudi and when asked for specifics, remained quiet on the issue. No fault...no foul...
Peace, Steve... 
NCTBA |
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Mia Xanthi
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 955
Location: why is my heart still in the Middle East while the rest of me isn't?
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| some people revel in learned helplessness |
Never in my life has anyone ever even implied that I could possibly be considered to be anything near helpless. Is this assumption due to the fact that I am female, although you have never met me?
Of course, SJ doesn't know me, but those who do would consider this comment hilarious. SJ, I am not one to revel in "learned helplessness".
I have repeatedly watched people who cannot afford to stay in Saudi Arabia long enough to take legal action get screwed out of money. They were not reveling in "learned helplessness" either. Also, you are not taking the sponsor into account here, either. If your sponsor is a very powerful member of the royal family (as is mine), all the legal action in the world is not going to help.  |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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In the Magic Kingdom, nobody can sue the owner of PMU or any member of the royal society of Uncle Bandar!
The board of trustees of PMU includes 3 members of the royal society of Uncle Bandar, one of them is the Governor of the Eastern Province. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| I have repeatedly watched people who cannot afford to stay in Saudi Arabia long enough to take legal action get screwed out of money |
If they are on a working visa then they don't have to stay. They simply give their lawyer power of attorney. It can be done in less than a week. Are you saying these people can't afford to stay one week?
If they were on business visas then it may well be a different matter as the case would go to the Sharia court not the Labour Court, and there may well not be a process in the regulation allowing you to leave the country and appoint another to pursue the matter.
As for the fact that your company is nominally in the hands of the royal family that doesn't make a shred of difference. You're not suing the prince personally, and if you were the problem wouldn't be getting a judgement in your favour but ensuring the execution of the judgement. |
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