Job Discussion Forums

[Mister Al]

Hansen is correct. Getting a D visa or something akin to 'permanent residency' is virtually impossible to get.

[chengdu4me]

Yes Hansen, I believe you are correct. They are the equivalent of a green card. I don't know a whole lot about them other than it is a permanent residence permit. Next time I talk to one of them, I'll ask how he managed to get it.

[Teatime of Soul]

D visas are rarely issued. Those who receive them typically are those who have been married to Chinese local five plus years, five plus years continuous residence, and sizable investment in China or considerable contribution to China's culture/society.

As for the other rules.. here is what the US Embassy says...

[Hansen]

Chengdu, You are approaching China in a fashion which could bring grief.

Why not get a teaching job in Chengdu with a "Z" visa and live here for a while before you get married? During that time, you could get a sense of how things work here and become better acquainted with your wife and her family.

I get the sense that you want to have a certain degree of control over your life which the FT arrangement is calculated to prevent.; however, by getting married first, you could be getting yourself into a situation which you will regret.

I see no downside to the approach I suggest. I see plenty with the plan you have in place now.

[Teatime of Soul]

Hansen makes a point there.

Jobs are easier to switch than spouses and the contract is a lot shorter.

But, the heart wants what the heart wants.

[sui jin]

I have to agree with Hansen. Your confidence and 'bullishness' about how things will go in China is admirable, but does not match with the messy reality of life here. Your amenable and eager to please fiancee may not turn out to be so easy-going once you have married. Chinese wives are notorious for wanting to control their husbands.
Why not get a job, live with her first and see how things go?

[englishgibson]

good points in last 3 posts.

haven't read the whole 9 yards of this thread but it doesn't seem that these L, Z or PR make a good sense. it feels like the authorities want us to "get out" for Z and then come back (if we wish)...at our expenses and to our inconvenience. so, they really want us to be "good employees" of one employer, don't they?

residency permits for the purpose to work (for one employer) can be extended for the same employer, however i am not so sure they can be extended if you change jobs in the same town. i've worked with a couple of pals that could not do so and had to improvise in their own way.

my general feeling is that those practices vary around the country and authorities aren't sure how to follow up on beijing's "unclear" directions.

cheers and beers to all authorities that would like foreign academics in their country without the condition to just stick to one employer

[Teatime of Soul]

e.g. I don't think the authorities intent is that FTs work for only one employer, forever.

I think their intent is that FTs be sponsored legally by only one employer at a time and that there be clear accountability, both ways during the employment period.

It is not necessary to leave the country when changing employers, the FRP and FEC can both be transferred legally prior to changing employers.

FTs should be able to have an employer legally accountable to provide for their contracted end of the deal. In order to do that, there needs to be a definite process for handing off the responsibility to the receiving employer.

Cheers

[englishgibson]

[chengdu4me]

I have known my fiancee for many years. We have been together for five years and I have spend about 70% of the last three years there with her. I think I know my fiancee and her family better than most of the men that make this leap. But, I am sure your warnings and advice are well meaning. It is true that some may make this leap without giving it a reasonable thought or spending enough time there to really get to know what is hidden in the shadows. Over the years, I have gained many friends there and her family sees me as one of their own. I have no worries on that issue. They actually argue about who gets to pick me up at the airport when I arrive. I am quite secure in the affections and respect of my family.

And yes! My fiancee is just as stubborn as I am! We both have our "I'm not budging!" issues, but we work them out. So far, I have no mop knots on my head. In reading your comments about Chines women "controlling" their husbands, I think some of you may not know the Chinese woman as well as you think you do. They control the house. There is no argument there. They see it as their duty to provide a safe, comfortable, happy, healthy home for their family. They know how to do this so your input really is just extraneous noise. Once they learn what makes their husband happy, they will do it and it is best that you shut up and let them. They will have their say on other issues.. The smart man listens, and then does what he thinks is best. If his decision is not in agreement with his wife, then a rational explanation is all that is required as to why his decision is better. All that it takes is communication. As long as your wife know that you are making decisions based on what is best for your family, not on some selfish whim, then the waters are smooth and the wind is gentle and all is right with the world.

I am not a fresh out of college young arrogant saver of the world. I learned a long time ago that the best way is whatever way is best and that means that sometimes it may not be my way. The goal is harmony, peace, love and growth. However those can be accomplished IS the best way, no matter who's idea it is.

The issue with the L vs. D visa will be answered by the Chinese Consulate. Whatever the Consulate in Houston recommends is the way it will be since they are the ones issuing the visa.

I can imagine the D visa is difficult to obtain. I would think that it would rate a special consideration, so I'm not holding my breath for that.

One reason I am reluctant to try to get a teaching position first is that although my moving date is set in stone, in reality, the stone is kinda soft. I'm not moving until every last piece of my personal possessions are sold here in the US. And, once the last piece goes, within a week, so do I. By setting my moving date for early next year, I believe I have given myself enough time to sell everything...time and the economy will be the teller of the final truth on that score. But, I also don't feel it would be right to commit myself to a contract and then not be able to honor it because of commitments left here.

When I leave the US, it will be for good. While we may make some adjustments as to where we live later in life, it won't be the US so there is no sense leaving here with unfinished business.

Still waiting to hear from the Consulate.....

[evaforsure]

[Teatime of Soul]

Personally, I'd make the time to get the new job before I left the old job. Or, if the school and local officials willing, extend the FRP for 30 days beyong the expiration date (if you didn't already negotiate this at the start of your contract).

Some FTs do refuse to return their expired FECs, I suppose not getting a final pay check and a derogatory recommendation letter are a small price to pay for the illusion of having bought some security.

Not sure what they think an expired FEC will do when the new school asks for their recommendation and release letter from the old school.

Also, when they refuse to surrender their passport as their FRP expires, they become illegal aliens in China. But, I suppose that trumps having an L visa in their mind.

There are some who can tell some entertaining tales along the lines of how, back he day, back when Chairman Mao ruled, that they forged their school seal, forged their own recommendation letters, stole off in the night with their red card and arrived at a new school that unhesitatingly and unquestioningly welcomed them.

Of course, SAFEA and the PSB use national databases these days and when you burn your bridges, you might just close a lot of employment doors in your own face.

But, you can put that theory to the test. Just ask the FAO at a new school if it is ok if you arrive with an expired FEC, no release letter, no letter of reference, while on illegal overstay status, if they can help you. Oh, and can they please not contact your previous employer? Hilarity ensues.

But really, what would you expect to happen at the end of your contract when you refuse to return your Red Card and refuse to allow the PSB to issue you documents to continue your stay legally in China?

From the Chinese authorities perspective, perhaps they feel it would be better to moderate the midnight runners who abscond with school property, have an unsavory history with the school, are unsuitable teachers, and in some cases, outright rogues.

I understand there is a popular recurring myth on some forums that the FT is an exploited saint who breaks his back while under the cruel whip of his sneering overlord of a headmaster.

But I've met enough substance abusing, incompetent, unmotivated layabout FTs as well as greedy, deceptive, exploitive and hammer-headed school headmasters to realize that the truth lies somewhere between the extremes.

Regulations that allow FTs to switch jobs without undue burden, that require a reference and a release letter to assure other schools they are eligible for hire and an opinion as to their merits, I have no problem with.

However, they say the devil is in the details.

I just haven't seen where this has been some huge burden on the average FT.

But, being China, your experience may vary.

Cheers

[Yes Sir I Can Bogey]

I think Hansen is right when he says that actually obtaining a 'D' visa and/or something akin to 'permanent residency' is virtually impossible to get; at least for normal people. In theory it is a trivial task, but then lots of things in China are easy in theory. This does not mean that no one has ever got one, though. I have read of two people who have successfully obtained permanent residency in the PRC. One was a non-Chinese guy who fought for China and the Chinese in the Korean War (!) against US and UK troops and was given residency in China afterwards as a reward. The other chap I heard of is the chairman (?) of the American Chamber of Commerce in Hong Kong. Apparently he got his visa/PR through investment. I think his investment totalled some 2,000,000. That was US dollars, not Yuan.....

The problem as I see it though, and one thing which no one else seems to have mentioned yet, is that, correct me if I'm wrong, the PRC does not currently permit dual citizenship (and there is no indication that it will at any time in the near future). Thus, if you were to obtain 'permanent residency', wouldn't you also have to give up your original passport and citizenship? Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't this mean that you would be subject to the laws of China � I mean, the 'real' laws � and thus would not, for example, be allowed to leave the country without permission? Doesn't it mean that you would be limited to having one child? Doesn't it also mean that you could, in theory, be 'called up' to serve in the Chinese armed forces in the event of a war, or just at the whim of an official? Doesn't it also mean you could be locked up without access to legal representation? And, since you would have given up your original citizenship and passport, wouldn't you be unable to contact any foreign consulate for help anymore than a Chinese person could? What if there is another revolution and the borders are closed to the local populace, i.e., those who don't hold foreign passports?

[Teatime of Soul]

I think the D visa allows a 10 year residency before renewal, it is not citizenship at all, just a long term visa (residence permit).

Ostensibly, a D visa would be convenient to both China and the visa holder since it would eliminate having to renew a visa every year.

However, in practice, I think the D visa is reserved for those who China holds near and dear to its heart and the D visa is used chiefly to bestow that status upon those whose cultural and economic contributions are highly valued.


I know one westerner who had been here six straight years, married to a Chinese wife for five of those years, and had a business with thirty Chinese employees. His staff asked if he could have a D visa to eliminate the yearly renewals - as he would be in China several more years. They were told his situation was well below the threshold to even be considered for a D visa.

Although I am sure there are some on this board who may leap in to announce they received a D visa while standing in the immigration line when they arrived in China. Or forged their own with a seal they copied from a government office at midnight, hanging Tom Cruise Mission Impossible style from ceiling cables. So, I'll caution, your experience may be different.

[Optional_Toaster]

Maybe I'm just in the backwoods but my L visa turned into a residence permit with no problems. Guanxi (spelling?), maybe on the part of the fao? Either way, I'm free to come and go and was told that the residence permit is all that matters. Z, L, whatever....if you've got the permit, the visa stuff doesn't mean anything anymore. I suppose some places are more difficult to deal with than the northeast, but once you've got your residence permit you are good to go i.m.h.o.


.....just realized I'm not exactly on topic.....I'll blame it on the third beer I had.

I would think there would be a way to become a permanent resident in China...what with paying taxes and all.

Can a foreigner become a Chinese citizen? (I admit here, i'm not reading everything!)....