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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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 Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 3:02 am Post subject: |
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| From everything I have heard from teachers who have taught in the US and in China, the chinese students beat them in discipline by a mile. |
Since not so many here have actually worked as a teacher, they have no real reference to stateside student behavior...... |
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eddy-cool
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 1008
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| Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| sharpe88 wrote: |
That's a crazy and unfortunate story. However, how is that anecdote more representative than, say Columbine as a fair example that illustrates how some American students tick ?
From everything I have heard from teachers who have taught in the US and in China, the chinese students beat them in discipline by a mile.
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It was a 'crazy and unfortunate' experience, right. But in the normal course of events a teachers is involved in, such 'stories' occur once in a while. The OP had a milder version of student rebellion to deal with; if FTs took discipline more seriously (check attendances more thoroughly, for instance) perhaps more 'unfortunate' incidents would be reported here.�Chinese students are no saints although I fully agree that they are not normally given to violence and drug-pushing.
But they certainly do present their own mix of 'unfortunate' behavioral traits, including cheating, plagiarising, deceiving and shunning their own responsibility. It's a 'cultural' difference.
I say that if you ignore acts of sabotage or of dishonesty you become instrumental and complicit in a vast cultural network of organised deception and mass cheating. Their discipline is assured so long as you allow them some illusions about their academic achievements but the minute they have to cope with a less favourable verdict from their FT - unexpected though it may be because the FT is, after all, only an 'oral English teacher'!!! - they can choose to become confrontational and disruptive. The major problem then is not so much the student per se - it is the lack of any moral support you may feel entitled to. The school most likely will withdraw their support and treat you as the troublemaker.
I think it is absolutely unnecessary to compare Chinese students with Western ones in this realm; what matters is whether they attain academic goals, and how they attain them (whether on their own or through fraudulent means).
One more time: Tertiary students are a pampered elite that don't deserve any special favours at their age any longer. It's high time they gave back to their own system and to others what they have gotten at everybody else's cost. We accept too many of these students at our universities and have to fund extra courses for them as well as - in many countries - to lower the entrance requirements. |
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eddy-cool
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 1008
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| Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Tainan wrote: |
Almost everything that can be said on this subject has already been said here, and the OP has solved his problem to his own satisfaction, it seems.First, when I was teaching in a university in Dalian, one of my students told me about an incident involving another one of my students and a Chinese professor. He had stood up in class and said that she was a bad teacher, and given a list of complaints about her teaching methods. Then she asked the whole class whether they agreed with him, and most of the class said yes, they did. I think she quit her job immediately, but I'm not sure what the outcome was.
Very recently, here in New York, a Chinese student told me a story that happened when he was at university in China. There was a very young new professor (Chinese obviously) whom the students didn't like simply because they didn't take someone young and new seriously. They showed their attitude in various indirect ways and finally one day the teacher began crying in class and said that she had tried to be a good teacher but that she couldn't teach when she wasn't getting any respect from the class.
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A valid point indeed! I think I never said Chinese students would NOT challenge their own teachers; but I do believe they show their disapproval to FTs more openly and more readily.
However, Chinese teachers too have to endure obnoxious behaviour from their students. Seasoned teachers will tell you they are afraid of their students; others move to an administrative post. Many remain in the teaching arena but probably learn to go the path of the least resistance.
These days the latter is the most widely adopted attitude. There has been an explosion in the number of fatal confrontations over the last year.
My wife tells me quite a lot of what's happening at her public school; students for example can order their Chinese teachers to change their hairdo to please students (?) or obligate them to wear dresses considered more 'suitable' by them.
We as laowais are exempted from a number of rigorous personality-stifling rules and code of conduct; hence we should not be too surprised if both students and Chinese teacher colleagues join hostile forces against us out of frustration over the unfairness of these unequal conditions. |
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theincredibleegg
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 224
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| Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Of course they're not going to take your classes seriously. You're a face and a toy for the school. The students can sense that. Let your job be what it is or quit, like i did. |
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Babala
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 1303
Location: Henan
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| Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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I was one of the posters who said that the students wouldn't do this to their Chinese teachers. I would like to correct my statement as it was a general statement and not always true. I should have said that in situations where the students think they can get away with such behaviour, they will. As the for the Chinese teacher that Tainan talked about, well there is someone who shouldn't be teaching that age group if she can't handle them. Breaking down and crying in front of your students is unacceptable.
You do have to set limits as to what behaviour is acceptable. |
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eddy-cool
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 1008
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:39 am Post subject: |
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Theincredibleegg: I thoroughly disagree with your summary. If I were so cynical I wouldn't have lasted so many years. Take YOUR subject and your situation more seriously, and I am positive you can motivate your students to take English and their FTs more seriously too!
I tell you, based on my experience, that is absolutely doable much or most of the time. Not always - admitted. But in many classes it is. |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| Theincredibleegg: I thoroughly disagree with your summary. If I were so cynical I wouldn't have lasted so many years. Take YOUR subject and your situation more seriously, and I am positive you can motivate your students to take English and their FTs more seriously too! |
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Another take is to define yourself by your past times and not you employment... then it really doesn�t matter....everyone has a choice to make.. but if it is up to me to convince a student that they need to study, then they will leave the education table hungry... standard operation procedures and class room administrative policy will bring students in line and eliminate the need for the FT to do anything except present the material in a professional manor..in that I agree with Mr. Cool...but dont let the little buggers defind what is important to you .. after all.. its only a paycheck... |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Theincredibleegg: I thoroughly disagree with your summary. If I were so cynical I wouldn't have lasted so many years. Take YOUR subject and your situation more seriously, and I am positive you can motivate your students to take English and their FTs more seriously too! |
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Another take is to define yourself by your past times and not you employment... then it really doesn�t matter....everyone has a choice to make.. but if it is up to me to convince a student that they need to study, then they will leave the education table hungry... standard operation procedures and class room administrative policy will bring students in line and eliminate the need for the FT to do anything except present the material in a professional manor..in that I agree with Mr. Cool...but dont let the little buggers define what is important to you .. after all.. its only a paycheck... |
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theincredibleegg
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 224
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| eddy-cool wrote: |
Theincredibleegg: I thoroughly disagree with your summary. If I were so cynical I wouldn't have lasted so many years. Take YOUR subject and your situation more seriously, and I am positive you can motivate your students to take English and their FTs more seriously too!
I tell you, based on my experience, that is absolutely doable much or most of the time. Not always - admitted. But in many classes it is. |
I lasted for one year at a middle-school. It was tough work. I quit and found new a job at a western orginzation where my role is quite different.
I just can't stand to have that kind of job position that i just had - barely having books; teaching an indequately defined subject; not teaching towards some kind of system etc. |
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theincredibleegg
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 224
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| evaforsure wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Theincredibleegg: I thoroughly disagree with your summary. If I were so cynical I wouldn't have lasted so many years. Take YOUR subject and your situation more seriously, and I am positive you can motivate your students to take English and their FTs more seriously too! |
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Another take is to define yourself by your past times and not you employment... then it really doesn�t matter....everyone has a choice to make.. but if it is up to me to convince a student that they need to study, then they will leave the education table hungry... standard operation procedures and class room administrative policy will bring students in line and eliminate the need for the FT to do anything except present the material in a professional manor..in that I agree with Mr. Cool...but dont let the little buggers define what is important to you .. after all.. its only a paycheck... |
Pretty tough when you don't have much experience to fall back on... |
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Fred Smith
Joined: 06 Dec 2008
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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Some things I have done: At the first class I make each student write down their email address and phone number, makes it easier for me to contact them if I need to and puts and end to text message without identification.
I have a problem with some students in one of my classes - two girls are always talking and disrupting the class. One of them gets snotty and rude when I ask her to be quiet. I have had to complain to the school about her, several times.
It's a business school and I lowered her grade in my class one whole letter. She complained, it stayed that way.
This semester I have the same class for a different business subject. Same problem and she's even ruder. I told her that whatever her actual mark is, I am going to give her a mark of 50 - or less. 50 is a pass. I have had to complain to the school again.
There's 3 weeks left in this class then I have to turn in marks. I have decided her grade is 50. If she continues to be rude then I will fail her. Then she has to take the exams over again, and if she fails them she doesn't get the foreign business certificate that she has worked for 3 years to get. |
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eddy-cool
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 1008
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:46 am Post subject: |
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Fred SMith,
pass grade in China is 60, not 50. Do you translate their numerical grades into letters? Nobody does it that I know! Numbers are far more accurate and the only marks that Chinese teachers give.
As for that rude girl: Talking during ongoing classes is common - Chinese teachers often resort to speaking into mikes. My wife loses her voice every term because she has to speak so forcefully.
I force my students to listen and take notes. The latter is quite new even to college students. I make them responsible for what they pick up, and what they pick up will often matter in tests. Those who listen and cooperate will miss the least. They will have the least difficulties in passing the exam.
You can also seat the two talkative girls apart. I sometimes find students in the far back of the classroom when desks in front are still unoccupied. I go down the aisle and tell students, 'either you move in front, or you pay 50 kuai!' It's a standing joke but they move. After one term, my students are now (in the second term) very well-behaved. Yesterday a girl came to apologise for missing a class today as she is having a job training at Carrefour. She said she liked me (yes, me!) 'very much' but she hoped I would allow her to seize on this unique chance of getting hands-on experience... I did, but I insisted she make up for the class missed with the help of her classmates.
One last point: You are under NO OBLIGATION to concede a second exam to a student that failed in the first final one.
This is a weakness in us FTs that students often take for granted, and therefore abuse. |
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The Ever-changing Cleric
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 1523
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:08 am Post subject: |
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| eddy-cool wrote: |
| I force my students to listen and take notes. The latter is quite new even to college students. I make them responsible for what they pick up, and what they pick up will often matter in tests. Those who listen and cooperate will miss the least. They will have the least difficulties in passing the exam. |
You raise a good point here. I also have the students take notes (these are not oral English classes) and while many do take notes (a good start) they jot them down haphazardly in the accompanying textbook, using the empty spaces between paras and in the margins. They all have a notebook but few of them use it for notes. The challenge now is to get them to take down notes in a more efficient way so that they can refer back to them more easily if and when they need them.
| eddy-cool wrote: |
| You can also seat the two talkative girls apart. I sometimes find students in the far back of the classroom when desks in front are still unoccupied. I go down the aisle and tell students, 'either you move in front, or you pay 50 kuai!' It's a standing joke but they move. After one term, my students are now (in the second term) very well-behaved. Yesterday a girl came to apologise for missing a class today as she is having a job training at Carrefour. She said she liked me (yes, me!) 'very much' but she hoped I would allow her to seize on this unique chance of getting hands-on experience... I did, but I insisted she make up for the class missed with the help of her classmates. |
Good.
| eddy-cool wrote: |
One last point: You are under NO OBLIGATION to concede a second exam to a student that failed in the first final one.
This is a weakness in us FTs that students often take for granted, and therefore abuse. |
I had a few students fail the exam in the first term this year. We had a very detailed review two weeks prior so most were prepared well enough. These few failed because they're just weak in English. I met with them after the exam and asked them what happened, then I offered them a rewrite, which they all passed. However, since it was a rewrite I only raised their grade to 60. Had they been like some students I saw in my previous job they wouldn't have been given a second chance. |
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Fred Smith
Joined: 06 Dec 2008
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| In my school passing is 50. And if they fail a class the teacher has to give them a retest. They are retards running this place. |
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sharpe88
Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 226
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:28 am Post subject: |
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it seems like
a) You really can't actually justify doing that. You could give her 0% for participation or whatever but changing her marks otherwise is abusive.
b) Your approach hasn't seemed to work anyway...
"There's 3 weeks left in this class then I have to turn in marks. I have decided her grade is 50. If she continues to be rude then I will fail her. Then she has to take the exams over again, and if she fails them she doesn't get the foreign business certificate that she has worked for 3 years to get." |
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