Job Discussion Forums

[PyRoT]

Hi,

I am planning on leaving Australia for China (though I may go for South Korea / Taiwan is there is an issue with staying).

I am curious as to how people go about staying in this country. From what I've read here, one can stay on family L visas that are renewed every year but I couldn't work legally. Since I plan to stay however, I think that there would be a reasonable chance of me being caught and deported one day.

The other way is to keep getting work visas through legal work. However, in these cases, I am wondering if there are many positions around that are less than full time (3-4 days a week). Last time I stayed I was working illegally and I found that the jobs I could get were varied in terms of working hours/days. There was even one that payed ~7k RMB for 2 days a week). Legal jobs seem to consist of mo-fri 9-5 types, where you must stay around even if you have no classes. I don't really like this.

Since I'd be staying long, I'd probably marry some Chinese girl one day but from what I've read, being a teacher makes it practically impossible to attain PR (even with a 5+ year marriage and consistent legal work). So while long-term this would be good, it appears I am stuck with the first two options (L or Z visas).

Is there anything else to know about staying long-term / permanently in China? While I love the country and all, it seems scary to be on the brink of having to leave all the time. Also, a big reason for me wanting to go is the chance of not having full time work so I don't relish the possibility of having to do that in order to stay and work legally.

Thanks

PS
I have a double major BA (Psych + Neurosience) with Honours and a Grad Dip in Economics. 6 months teaching experience in China. Mainly an adult class at an engineering company and privates with uni students.

[eddy-cool]

Hmmm, why plan on staying 'long time' in a foreign country that you don't formally ask to invite you as an immigrant?

Marrying and staying put? Can you satisfy a Chinese girl so she will want to stay here with you?

A girl that marries will assess you thoroughly: Have you got the requisite '36 legs' in your household dowry?

If not, you are hardly eligible!

Again, if she marries you because you are well off, consider that she might one day get tired of your sedate lifestyle and dump you.

Have you thought your plans through?

[PyRoT]

Well, I am not certain I have thought it out all the way but when I worked in China, I had a bad job which payed 3000 after rent and this was way more than enough for just me. If I stayed and gained experience / contacts I would probably reach a 10k level and perhaps more as time went by. Especially with some privates on the side.

I didn't live in the main Beijing area but close and where I lived, it seemed (and friends would tell me) that 10k is a really good amount to earn per month.

As for the girl question, I am unsure what the 36 legs are and despite what I've read around, the girls I met didn't seem so materialistic so it doesn't seem like a long shot to find one that would appreciate being able to have more family time instead of work time (as opposed to countries like South Korea). I feel that 10k+ should be able to support a wife and child and by the time such a thing would happen, I would probably have more than 10k. Anyway, the whole wife / family thing is not something I'd rush into and is out there in the long-term. Lastly, I don't want to live a lifestyle where I sit at home all day. I enjoy going outside to parks, mountains, dancing, various sports etc. I have many hobbies that I would engage in. Otherwise, I'd probably love working fulltime+overtime here in Aus hehe.

I prefer the legal work way anyway except I am unsure about the availability of legal jobs that aren't full-time, or at least, don't ask you to stay there all day.

I would appreciate some devil's advocate stuff in case I missed something though over my 6 months there, and in that underpaid 6-day job, it seemed the idea was quite feasible.

[Tainan]

Hi,

Without a lot more background information than you have given, I'm not sure that I know what to say, but don't you think you're putting the cart before the horse a bit here? Just go, get a legal job, live for a couple of years, and then if you're happy in your life go on staying there. If you meet a girl whom you want to marry then talk about getting married. There are lots of university jobs that only ask for 16 hours a week, so I don't see why your aversion to full-time work needs to prevent you from working legally--but you do have a choice to make here. No university job is going to pay 10,000, and any job that does pay 10,000 is going to be asking you to work full-time. In China, as everywhere else, you will get what you pay for.

At a university, if you stay year after year, you will get small raises each year. If you have a Master's you will get as much as 1,000 more than someone without a Master's. That means that if you have a Master's, after a few years at the same university you could be making as much as 5-6 thousand a month for very part time work, and a few private lessons on the side could supplement that. There was at least one foreign teacher at my university who had been there for years and was planning to stay "for good"--but what was going to happen to her when she got too old to work, I don't know. In fact there had been one teacher who had gotten alzheimers and didn't get her contract renewed and nobody knows what happened to her.

But again, it strikes me as somewhat strange to be talking about staying permanently on the basis of your six months--go first and take one step at a time.

[The Ever-changing Cleric]

Pyro T, my post echoes much of what Tainan said and it doesn't look like you have much of a plan so far. My first suggestion to you would be this: make sure you have your finances sorted out before making a move to China. Meaning: make sure you have substantial funds set aside to last you in the event things go pear shaped. Do you have any other income? Pensions? Investments?

Second point: don't settle for any of those jobs that leave you with RMB3000 per month to spend. That wont go far these days.

Third: If your only experience in China is your previous six month stint, make sure you don't burn all your bridges behind you. Anyone can do six months here and say they love the place. After 3-4 years or more, your feelings might have changed a lot and the plan you started out with might look so good any longer. You might not be able to get home fast enough.

Finally, you might consider joining a site like Shenzhen Stuff.

At least half the members are foreigners (most of the rest are single Chinese women), most are in Shenzhen, and most of the expats (from what I've seen) are working/living on F visas. You can get a lot of good advice from some of them on that site as to how you might proceed.

[suanlatudousi]

The real question here is what exactly makes you want to get up and move to China permanently ? China is not exactly the world's first choice to move to on a permanent basis. What are your issues back home that you would run away and try to blend in here permanently ?

You're afraid of getting caught teaching illegally with an L visa but you're not afraid of getting caught by teaching on-the-side?

And your idea that you could work a few years, gain experience, and have that salary increase every year or with every job you get - well that's not how it really works here. Experience means nothing for the most part. If you get a new job, you start at their low salary for a newcomer.

You've got some flaws here.

[PyRoT]

Well, I could say that I am running away from certain things. I remember how I felt in China. With my low salary and 6 day week of 22 hours, I felt more free and happy as they were short days. I had more than enough money for my lifestyle and could save heaps of it. After 5 months, I had saved 5k RMB though I had spent 3k RMB earlier on a few days in hospital. A totaol of 8 isn't bad.

I also really liked the people and friends around where I lived. All friendly, not very materialistic and I could have lots of simple fun with them without having to get drunk. I was even appreciated for not being a big drinker. It seemed like I had a lot more than enough money and was having a great time. If I wanted to go to Beijing it was less than an hour by bus. I didn't even need a car due to the low cost of transport. Everything like shopping, work, food and even nightclubbing was a maximum of 15 minutes walk away. I also loved the nearby mountains.

Back at home, I am in a full time job which gives me much less buying power while working almost double the hours. It may be 5 days but it's not a laid back set of days. I figure that even if I got paid 2 or 3 times as much, I wouldn't enjoy my life more than over there due to the fact those 5 days of work are hard to salvage. Also, I don't need that much money to be happy, especially if I haven't the time to use it. The layout of Australia and its suburbs requires me to have a car and all my friends, work, shopping etc. are quite far away. I also miss the fact that when you walk out of the door, there is no community... just streets with suburban houses. I could live closer to the city but that is really expensive then.

So if I was happy and had more than enough during my time in China, then getting a job that pays more for less work feels like a fantasy really. I know many people have issues with China but most of them don't bother me much while I really like many other things about living there.

So yeah, that's why I want to be there

[Mister Al]

To put it simply

1. Work legally and renew your RP every year
2. Get married and remain on a L visa and work illegally.
3. Start or invest in a company which benefits the locals in some way and renew your residency permit annually (or less)

You have no chance of getting any form of 'permanent residence'

[Tainan]

Ok, this is much better. Before you just sort of plopped a situation down before us--your wanting to move to China permanently--without any real context. (I was wondering whether you'd killed someone in Australia and were needing a permanent escape.) I still don't see why questions about the permanance of your stay in China need to be settled, or even raised, now. Just go and live one day after another! If you never go back to Australia then you'll have ended up living in China permanently anyway. There definitely are ways. The woman teaching at my school, whom I mentioned, ended up with something sort of equivalent to a green card although I do not know the details--this is something the Chinese government can bestow on a foreigner who speaks the language decently, is regarded as a friend of the country, has lived there for years etc. Whether you will want to stay there so long will depend on your ability to learn the language (living for a very long time in a place without learning the language is a bad idea) find a family, and remain happy.

One thing I would recommend, since living there forever is something you are contemplating, is not to work illegally. Why would you risk being deported? In Korea or Taiwan there is a point--legal work generally involves contracts and far more work than it sounds like you want to do, but in China, at a univ. at least, that is not the case.

Again, consider a Master's degree if you don't already have one. There was a teacher at my university who got one online while teaching. Once she got her master's she got a job at an international school in Shanghai. At least you'll make a bit more money--although whether 500-1000 more a month is worth the expense of getting a masters is something you'll have to do the math on.

good luck!

[PyRoT]

Thanks again for the quick replies I should have explained my situation more at the beginning.

A masters is probably not worth the money sink. Of course, if I do a masters in Australia, I can get a government loan which only needs to be repaid once I earn a certain salary. If I never work here, I'd never have to pay for it lol. Still, the time I'd be doing it could probably be used to earn more money instead. I have, literally, 3 graduation papers from uni so it should at least be better than just a BA alone. It's 5 years of uni after all.

This green-card thing is interesting. I'd like to know more about it. The language I picked up very well apparently considering I arrived with nothing. I recently met some swing dancers who have lived in Beijing for 7 years and they were impressed with my Chinese, before me telling them I also learnt to read many characters. Not sure about the 'friend of the country' part. I've only ever heard of the PR type thing where you need to invest a lot of money into China.

With the options outlined by Master Al, I have thought of starting a business there though it would involve something online based so in that case, I'd probably end up constantly renewing an F or L visa. For now though it seems that the best option is the legal work. I know there are two hiring season though are either of them better than the other? I would like to look around and see if there are many legal jobs that offer 4 or less days of work. I would actually be fine with 5 days if I don't have to be in-office outside of class time but I'm not sure if that's common with legal jobs.

[Mikeylikesit114]

I am going to add my voice to others who have mentioned that you are putting the cart before the horse, and I will add that although your naivete is charming I am deeply worried about your lack of planning and realism.

You don't like the pervasive materialism of western countries. Fine.
You think that you can live forever on 10,000 RMB a month (in Beijing). Fine.
You don't like working normal hours. Fine.

You are talking about moving to China PERMANENTLY, and yet you blithely make assumptions about your ability to support yourself into the distant future, and want assurance that no local bureaucrat will want to kick you out of the country at some point.

This is China. Nothing is certain except death, taxes, and guanxi.

I know this has been harsh, but I don't want you to wake up one morning in 10 years, and find that the 50,000 RMB that you have saved isn't enough to pay for your hospital trip, or bribe to a local official, or some other emergency that will threaten your safety or that of your loved ones.

[roadwalker]

I agree with the advice to just come here to work one year and take it from there. There aren't two kinds of jobs: legal and illegal, unless you are talking about smuggling or other 'work'. You are a bit light in experience, but you shouldn't have too much trouble getting Legal Status (a z-visa, FEC, residence permit) to work in a university or middle school. At a uni, you most likely wouldn't be asked to hold office hours and outside of a few English Corners and speech contests, you would have lots of free time, with a good chance at three day weekends or better.

You had a good time your last time, but don't expect to step back into the same river. At the schools I have taught for, some things have been the same but each school has had some unique things I like and others I dislike. I like China, but I'm not going to marry her. And she isn't asking me to. She's happy to have me here (so she says) and appreciates me in one year doses. You don't have to declare your love, just sign a contract and get a visa.

Oh, and if the masters is relatively painless, get it. A bachelors is ok, but there is no such thing in China as a super-duper BA. It's a box on a list to be ticked. A masters, any subject will pay (slightly) better than a BA, any subject.

[Bryon]

[eddy-cool]

I am mystified by your belief ordinary Chinese are NOT materialistic...

Very mystified.

Of course, if yo0ur employer takes care of your every need, such as housing, and cafeterias and canteens on-site to look after your vital requirements, you can live here, or survive here, quite decently.

But over time you will want to break out of this narrow routine and enjoy alternatives.

Housing off-campus can eat into your budget quite big holes. In such a tight market, the forces are against small potatoes that do not own their abode. Rentals go up much faster than salaries do.

You want to purchase your own dwelling-place? You won't be making enough money to pay for that, though. You will end up paying ever more exorbitant rentals, saving every year less money...towards your own apartment.

Your job is not going to be stable. Where are you going to stay between two contracts if your employers provide housing?

[haopengyou]

I am also a little confused at your belief that the Chinese are not materialistic. I had a part time job for a while with the new oriental school - six years ago was paying 220 rmb per hour. I was working 10 hours a week and had more than enough money for my expenses, plus traveling and saving, and had time to study....yet all my Chinese friends wondered why I didn't try to find another job to make more money, or at least ask for more hours. The Chinese people will not behave this way to a stranger - at 5 months you are only a novelty, still a stranger - but once you approach a year you will discover them asking you these kinds of questions. For a brief instance I picked up another 10 hours when some teachers were ill. My friends still thought I should look for additional hours, especially since I had both Saturday and Sunday free.

I second the consensus: pick up as much education as your wallet and time allow you and then go to China and try it for a while. If you don't have one at least get the CELTA certification. I have heard from a couple of friends in China now that new teacher candidates have to take an exam - is that true? 12 years ago, when I first went to China, I could have taught English anywhere - all you needed then was a "big nose" and white skin. Now, thanks to our years of good teaching the university grads English is getting better and better, which means that they are more qualified to teach higher levels of English, which means that the schools don't need you or me to do it. Just something to think about. Not only will a masters degree get you more money but it will give you more options for work, especially if you want to do corporate training. And in 10 years, the requirements for native English speakers are going to be even higher. Another option to consider is the CELTA certification and then a masters degree in your subject area or an MBA. I have heard first hand of several universities paying teachers with a subject matter masters degree (as opposed to a masters in English, linguistics, TESOL, etc) 10K rmb per month for only 6-8 hours of teaching a week, and also provide housing. It is not the norm but it is not rare. I have seen posts like this for uni's in Beijing and Shanghai. Maybe the first thing you should do is sit down at your computer for half a day and google and bookmark as many sites as you can that advertise teaching jobs in China. I think that would be very educational.

One other thought...I am sure this is far away for you, but once you hit 60 yo you will probably not be granted another visa. If you are married you can possibly stay longer but the friends I have in that situation are not allowed to work. Even if you love the country, short of getting citizenship there, permanent doesn't exist.

RE: the greencard, the only people I have heard of getting those were presidents and VP's of Hewlett Packard, Motorola, etc.