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Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
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brillig
Joined: 21 Feb 2009
Posts: 6
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 Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| johnson430 wrote: |
Hola brillig,
As far as traveling to your destination...
Why don't you take the cheap route and bus it?
You will get a better appreciation for the culture and land if you travel through it instead of over it.
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If I decide to go to Guadalajara, I might do that. Thanks for the suggestion. Unfortunately Thailand and China were my other considerations, neither of which can be reached by current bus technology.  I've not found airfair under $1400 to Thailand. |
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johnson430
Joined: 17 Mar 2009
Posts: 33
Location: Texas, USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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brillig,
When are you leaving?
I did a quick search on priceline.com
All flights are One-Way from Nashville (BNA) to Bangkok (BKK)
Departs ----- $US
April 1 ----- 892
May 4 ----- 752
June 2 ----- 1038
July 1 ----- 1038
Aug 3 ----- 752
Most flights had 2-3 stops and take 30-35 hours total but look at the price!
Good luck,
Johnson |
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KoreaLifer
Joined: 19 Mar 2009
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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Why would you bother with getting a CELTA if you're American?
It's not accepted in the USA as something that will help you get a real teaching job at a state school. You'll need to take the appropriate courses from a university and pass state certifications to do that.
I can see taking a CELTA if you plan to teach adults in a Europe, a CELTA training center, or nation that follows the British system, but in all honesty, there are few places around the world I know of where it helps you earn more than jobs without it. In fact, most nations that are willing to accept a CELTA and pay you more money for having it don't pay well anyway (or are restrictive places where most wouldn't want to teach -- like Saudi).
The CELTA is an excellent course for hands-on training, but it's very expensive, and in my opinion, over-marketed. If you plan on teaching in the EU, then it's a good feather in your cap for sure. In the USA, your resume will meet the rubbish bin with just a CELTA and no proper state certifications. |
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Chancellor
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| KoreaLifer wrote: |
| Why would you bother with getting a CELTA if you're American? |
I presume they do it because they don't want to teach in America and they've been told essentially "CELTA or Trinity or you aren't certified." It's that whole brand name vs. generic thing.
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| It's not accepted in the USA as something that will help you get a real teaching job at a state school. You'll need to take the appropriate courses from a university and pass state certifications to do that. |
Yes and that means not only the generic teacher certification that all teachers are required to have but additional training (more likely at the masters level) specifically in ESL. And yet ESL teachers in the states are often treated as if they're not "real teachers" and they're often lumped in with special education teachers.
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| I can see taking a CELTA if you plan to teach adults in a Europe, a CELTA training center, or nation that follows the British system, but in all honesty, there are few places around the world I know of where it helps you earn more than jobs without it. In fact, most nations that are willing to accept a CELTA and pay you more money for having it don't pay well anyway (or are restrictive places where most wouldn't want to teach -- like Saudi). |
It's really important for people to understand that CELTA is a course training you to teach adults.
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| The CELTA is an excellent course for hands-on training, but it's very expensive, and in my opinion, over-marketed. If you plan on teaching in the EU, then it's a good feather in your cap for sure. |
Again, the brand name vs. generic thing.
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| In the USA, your resume will meet the rubbish bin with just a CELTA and no proper state certifications. |
Well, that's true if you want to teach in the government indoctrination centers (public schools) but you could probably get away with having CELTA if you want to teach in one of the relatively few private language schools that teach adults.
But, looking off into the future, I can see other countries demanding that those who want to teach English in their countries will have nothing less than the same certification that government (public) schools in our home countries require. I can see TEFL coming into its own as a real career field that is the equivalent of teaching foreign languages in American, Canadian, or other Anglophone countries' public schools. |
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KoreaLifer
Joined: 19 Mar 2009
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Chancellor wrote: |
| KoreaLifer wrote: |
| Why would you bother with getting a CELTA if you're American? |
I presume they do it because they don't want to teach in America and they've been told essentially "CELTA or Trinity or you aren't certified." It's that whole brand name vs. generic thing. |
You'll have to help me out here, and tell me where such countries/places/jobs exist? Which jobs state "It's CELTA/TRINITY or you aren't certified?"
I'll be willing to be that such occupations are either:
A. Affiliated with a CELTA training center, Cambridge, or perhaps Trinity.
B. Or are in areas of the world where the pay is dismal to begin with.
C. In a country where you must live in a compound and must give up your personal freedoms to teach there.
If you truly want to teach in such places for the experience, and the school you are looking at expects CELTA/TRINITY, then go for it. If you are merely interested in improving yourself and learning something, by all means do it.
But if you are interested in saving your pennies for the future, then ask yourself why you'd sink so much money up front for a 1-month course when the country you're planning to work in pays you peanuts for the effort in return?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the better ESL/EFL teaching jobs (universities, international schools) that are the most respected demand MA's or true state licenses from institutions that do not accredit their own programs for the sake of calling them accredited.
From what I can see, a 1-month course like the CELTA can provide some excellent short-term training, but there is a limit to what such a course will actually help you achieve in the overseas job market. I'm sure those selling the course will beg to differ with me, and if so, I understand. Please feel free to take issue with the points I've mentioned above.
The TEFL certification market is full of everything from proper courses to snake-oil salesmen. There is a whole lot of gray area in the middle. The CELTA and Trinity are the best of these, but they are heavily marketed. When a course costs as much as these courses do, you can understand why they would be.
I hope those considering teaching as an occupation to know that there is a great deal of hype/profit behind the marketing of courses costing in the thousands of dollars -- whether they are respected or not. Even if they are "respected," understand that there is a limit to the truth of what they can deliver you monetarily in the job market.
Ask some tough questions about the course you wish to take (to people other than those selling you something). Find out where most graduates of these programs are working. Did their TEFL certification get them their dream ESL/EFL job, or was it merely another feather in their cap behind an MA or state teaching license? Did the job turn out to be a teaching job at a public school, or merely a trainer job at the same company that offered the certification?
Caveat Emptor.
Ask where you can actually work with one of these certifications. Ask how much you'll get paid over someone without said certification. Look at other jobs in that country on other websites that aren't placing you in jobs after you take their course (some TEFL courses play this game). You might find that the "You need a XXXX certification to work here" line is exactly that -- a line.
There is a ton out there. Do your homework. |
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Chancellor
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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KoreaLifer, there are several threads where this whole issue of certification has been hashed and re-hashed. Here's one of them: http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=68780&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0.
When I chose to go through ONTESOL/Coventry House in Toronto, I took different things into consideration: cost, accreditation (by an organization that is actually qualified to accredit TESOL courses, e.g. TESL Canada), course content (this 250-hour course is divided into three parts: grammar, phonology and methodology), and the location of the teaching practicum (though that last one has proven a bit problematic as Customs Canada wrongly decided I needed a work permit to go do the teaching practice; so, I'm trying to work out something locally with Buffalo Public Schools adult education).
I supect that the time is coming when this kind of discussion is rendered irrelevant because having a teaching license from your home country will be among the minimum requirements as TEFL takes its place in the world as a genuine teaching profession instead of something to help pay your way while traveling. Now if only American public schools would stop lumping ESL with special education and American public school teachers start looking at ESL teachers as real teachers (particularly since ESL teachers in some states require more education than general education teachers).
Would I want to teach ESL in American government indoctrination centers (public schools)? I don't know. Part of the coursework for my bachelor of science degree was in special education and going that route is not entirely out of the question. |
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KoreaLifer
Joined: 19 Mar 2009
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:31 am Post subject: |
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I know there are. And there are several threads covertly advertising TEFL courses on this page itself. Teachers need to hear the whole story. I believe all information is appreciated by people considering such courses.
Please feel free to answer my questions from above, if you know them. In my experience, there are few jobs not affiliated with above-mentioned TEFL courses that REQUIRE that course for entry. In short -- it's almost as if the positions were created to advertise the course.
My suggestion to people considering a life-long career in EFL/ESL/ELL is to consider the following:
If you feel you really need a TEFL certification, consider a true brick-and-mortar university program that allows you to apply the credit toward a higher degree in the future. If you do, you'll later be half of the way toward a true degree.
Beware -- many dubious programs know smart people check this out, and there are now TEFL programs that offer credit at dubious institutions with no accreditation. Yes, some dodgy courses are affiliated with dodgy universities, so please do your homework in this regard. Also, make sure the university they are affiliated with will:
1. Offer more than a mere couple of credit hours in return for the course.
2. Is one that you can easily continue your education with in the future, given whatever location you'll be in.
3. Is fully accredited by your home government (check with the gov't -- don't believe what the course says).
4. Applies the credit toward a worthwhile degree in the industry.
5. Is the credit they give you at an institution you will be qualified to enter later?
As someone who has worked in the industry for about 7 years now, I have seen a lot of people come and go who have taken these TEFL courses. Many will agree that the better ones (CELTA/Trinity) helped them in their early days, but I've heard comments from experienced teachers that claim the courses would be better for newbees.
Often, there were complaints that despite improving their teaching ability, the course didn't allow them to advance much further than others who had not taken the course (given the amount of time they actually spent in ESL/EFL/ELL). Those who obtained solid, good paying jobs in the market did so because they earned either an Education-related MA or already had completed a full BA program with certification back home.
Are TEFL courses worthless? Certainly not. But do your homework. Make sure that the course you take will count as credit toward an MA program at a true brick-and-mortar institution in the future. The credit you already earned in your TEFL course will save you time later. |
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mlomker
Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 378
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| Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Chancellor wrote: |
| And yet ESL teachers in the states are often treated as if they're not "real teachers" and they're often lumped in with special education teachers. |
The available work in the US is primarily part-time with no benefits. You can probably earn more in Korea with a BS and a TEFL than you can as a certified ESL teacher in the US.
After looking into it a fair bit, I think that a US citizen would be best off doing their TEFL as a graduate certificate. You'll receive some credit toward a masters even though it might cost a few dollars more than a CELTA. |
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sweeney66
Joined: 26 Mar 2008
Posts: 147
Location: "home"
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| Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| I invested my life savings in the celta 4 years ago, and I felt it was worth it. I taught for 3 years in Mexico City for a very livable wage and am now persueing my MA in applied linguistics. CELTA is a good start. |
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godmachine12
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 62
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| KoreaLifer wrote: |
Why would you bother with getting a CELTA if you're American?
It's not accepted in the USA as something that will help you get a real teaching job at a state school. |
Not all of us want to stay and work here. My reason for doing the course�which I'll be taking in Edinburgh at the end of May�is to leave here. As the person said about using their life savings and pursuing it, I'm in a bit of the same situation. I'm leaving my current job, packing up what I can, and taking off. I was going to go the easy route and go back and get my teaching certificate in the US, but there is no point as I'm not interested in staying here now anyway. That option will always be available to me, so I can come back if I so choose. |
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Justin Trullinger
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3110
Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Korealifer-
A lot of what you're saying is true- Checking out what certificate course you're doing makes a heck of a lot of sense.
But your online handle makes me think that you're in Korea, perhaps long term.
There are a lot of places in the world where having some prior training in order to get entry level work is the norm. Most countries I've worked in were this way. You just couldn't get work without it, or you got considerably lower quality work.
Korea, in my experience, is a big exception to the norm- offers decent salaries to unqualified teachers. I was in Korea only briefly, and as a fairly well-qualified non-newbie, very much enjoyed (amongst a lot of other things) my salary. Met a lot of unqualified teachers who were also doing well- less well, but well.
Other posters, please chime in if I'm wrong, but I know of no country other than Korea in which an unqualified newbie can usually earn a decent living. I think this is worth considering- if posters are looking at places besides Korea, it just isn't true that quals don't make any difference.
Best,
Justin |
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KoreaLifer
Joined: 19 Mar 2009
Posts: 8
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Justin Trullinger
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3110
Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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Far be it from me to advertise the CELTA- it's not my thing at all.
But:
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In my experience, there are few jobs not affiliated with above-mentioned TEFL courses that REQUIRE that course for entry. In short -- it's almost as if the positions were created to advertise the course.
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Well, I clearly can't argue about what your experience has taught you. Your handle makes me think that your experience is specific to one country, though; if this is the case, try to say so, so that unwitting newbies don't turn up in other parts of the world thinking it was general.
My experience is in EUrope and Latin American, mostly Latin America. And I have encountered a heck of a lot of language institutions that hire only cert qualified teachers that offer no certificate courses.
If your comment about covertly advertising courses here was meant to apply to me, let me clarify. This is a job discussion board- I'm here to discuss issues related to my job. I am an SIT TESOL trainer. It's my job, so I discuss it on a job discussion board. There's nothing covert or reprehensible about that.
Best,
Justin |
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Chancellor
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| mlomker wrote: |
| Chancellor wrote: |
| And yet ESL teachers in the states are often treated as if they're not "real teachers" and they're often lumped in with special education teachers. |
The available work in the US is primarily part-time with no benefits. You can probably earn more in Korea with a BS and a TEFL than you can as a certified ESL teacher in the US. |
I disagree. The ESL positions in public schools pay reasonably well and provide the kinds of benefits the general education teachers receive in the same schools.
| Quote: |
| After looking into it a fair bit, I think that a US citizen would be best off doing their TEFL as a graduate certificate. You'll receive some credit toward a masters even though it might cost a few dollars more than a CELTA. |
Why bother doing a mere graduate certificate when you could go on and get your master's in TEFL? |
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