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bradley
Joined: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 235
Location: China
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 Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:06 am Post subject: |
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Well, it's also easier to get the better jobs from inside the country than out.
Also, it depends on the individual. Some people are not coming for the money but for the experience.
And it's also early for some universities to hire so maybe you can wait a bit longer to see what other opportunities are out there. I know the university where I'm currently employed has not started looking for teachers for next term yet. |
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The Ever-changing Cleric
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 1523
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| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| Tainan wrote: |
A pizza at Pizza Hut will run you close to RMB100.
You can have a good basic chinese meal--buns, noodles--for two or three kuai. You can have a really nice chinese meal--various meats, vegetables, fish, beer--for ten to thirty RMB. I actually lived rather wastefully--I took taxis far too often, ate foreign food far too often, bought fine furniture for my room--and I still managed to spend five weeks travelling in Guangxi and Yunnan provinces for only about 500 USD which I'd managed to save up. Had I lived frugally, taking a bus and eating mostly local food (which would, by the way, have been better not only for financial reasons) I would have saved far more.
It's easy to say "I'll have Pizza Hut once in a while" but the problem is it tends to become a habit. My advice is don't do it. Eat the noodles around the corner. They're good, they're fresh, the dollars will save themselves up in the bank without your even realizing it, and you'll make local friends and learn the language at the same time. |
As you noted Maxwell is probably new to China. Newbies generally save less since they don't know how things work here, it takes time to figure your way around. Newbies, for a variety of reasons, are also more likely to seek out the "comfort food" from home more often as well, thereby spending more.
| Tainan wrote: |
| And finally, who do we think we are? Immigrants come to our country and they're happy to take jobs washing dishes or chopping vegetables in a basement. They work their way up step by step. |
Your analogy is pretty weak Tainan. First, none of us are "immigrants" to China, we're guest workers if anything (and depending on how you feel about your local surroundings, privileged guests). Second, unlike immigrants and refugees to the US or Canada, we're not competing for and taking jobs from the locals here since our designation is "Foreign Expert."
Further, (don't know about where you come from) but a fair number of the immigrants and refugees to my country have little education. On the other hand, all of us (if we're legal) at least have a BA from an accredited school. I never expected the highest paying job off the plane, but I also didn't come here to wash dishes or earn as little money as possible.
| Tainan wrote: |
| I've been around long enough to figure out that we really do "get what we pay for". At the end of the day the difference between 3000RMB and 5000RMB is not so great. In terms of long-term life happiness the difference is not so great. If Maxwell finds a job offering 5000 it will almost certainly be in some appreciable way a less pleasant job--let's say, in a city with more pollution or with more demanding work conditions. |
I agree with you on this point, money isn't the main thing. I am where I am because the local situation is more to my liking than Shanghai. My salary is less here than other places (but still nearly double what Maxwell is being offered) and I like it here. It's a good job, with no special requirements, in a decent location, and it wasn't hard to find on my own.
Maxwell is doing the right thing, asking questions on this forum, and if he was wise, he'd be looking for and comparing other jobs to this one his friend offered. Lots of jobs will be offered in the next few weeks (for next year).
Here's a story, I also worked in one of China's poorer provinces, it was my first job before my current one. The salaries there were low, about the same Maxwell was offered. I didn't know about this forum before arriving so I just came blind and took the job for one term. Once I got there I soon discovered what others in the same city were earning in other schools, and then I started reading this forum and seeing what was offered in other places.
The school asked the four of us to stay for the following year, and three of us agreed but I had planned to ask for a raise. Before I could do that the school rescinded the job offer for the following year saying they couldn't hire any foreigners in the future. So we moved on. I later found out their story wasn't true, they hired other foreigners, but somehow they hired a bunch of 19-20 year olds just out of high school and they paid them even less than they paid us. It didn't take much to figure out that these "educators" (who could pay higher salaries) were only concerned with saving money (likely pocketing the savings), no matter what it took.
And one of my foreign colleagues at this place, an older woman in her early 60s, she couldn't save anything on that meager salary of 3500, and at years end, didn't even have enough money to get home (airfare reimbursement at that school was also minimal). She had to beg from family members to send her some money so she could leave China.
One final point. I used to be a strong believer in helping out those in need in this ESL business. Meaning, I'd be happy to take a job that pays less (or even volunteer) if those in need genuinely couldn't afford to pay much or anything. Unfortunately, this is rarely the case. I've discovered that in some places FTs working for free (volunteers) were working for someone who was charging the students money and that employer was pocketing 100% of the money for themselves. I believe the same to be true for many of these places offering low-ball salaries. |
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Basilm87
Joined: 23 Nov 2008
Posts: 21
Location: Midg�rd/London/Beijing
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:03 am Post subject: |
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Good post Ever-changing Cleric, now THATS a real answer  |
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Tainan
Joined: 01 Apr 2009
Posts: 120
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:07 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps at this point a useful contribution to the question would be to give specifics about the various jobs being compared here, to make sure that we are comparing apples to apples and not to oranges. Since Cleric is basically saying that because his job pays twice what the job in QinZhou has offered Maxwell, the latter is not a good choice, the next questions are 1. Are the work conditions/hours/etc. the same or comparable, 2. are there many such jobs available, and 3. Is it reasonable for someone who has not been in China before to expect to find such a job from abroad.
For example, when I said that Maxwell should ask for air-fare, travel alllowance, housing allowance etc., Cleric said:
| Quote: |
If the school is skimping this much on the salary, there's a good chance they'll skimp on other things as well, such as air ticket reimbursement.
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Now, I rejected this because my school paid the same thing which this school in Qin Zhou is offering, and not only did not skimp on those other things but in fact was rather generous with them. But then again, I didn't regard my salary as skimpy to begin with.
So here are the details:
Job: Univ. of Technology Dalian
Salary: 3,300 a month first year, 3,600 a month second year.
Hours: 16 45-minute "hours" a week. If they asked us to teach more they paid extra, not luxuriously but decently--I don't remember exactly how much.
Housing: either a decent small room on campus, or 1,500 a month housing allowance. since my rent was 1,000 a month, I pocketed the extra 500.
Conditions: No complaints. We were treated well by the school, very few demands were made on us, the students were respectful and polite. Very nice campus atmosphere.
Vacation: one week in Oct., one week in May, seven weeks in winter. 2,200 in holiday bonus "travel allowance."
Airfare: reimbursed in full. The school bought our tickets to wherever we were going and paid for them.
10 month vs. 12 month: If you renewed your contract for a second year you got paid for June July and August even though you weren't working in them. If you did not, you stopped getting paid on the last day you worked, which meant that you ended up getting paid for about 10 months.
Possibility of outside work: Lots. There were many outside offers and most of us ended up supplementing our income with a few or more private lessons a week--I usually ended up making around 6000-7000 a month and working about 20-25 hours a week in all.
Location: clean, unpolluted, relaxed and friendly if rather boring city. Lived in a tree-filled area just outside of campus, had a pleasant ten-minute walk to class every day.
Lifestyle: I would say I lived well on what I made, and even though I was far from frugal I managed to save enough to travel around the country in the ample winter vacation.
Is there any other information that would be helpful? Feel free to ask any questions.
When I was looking at jobs in China in the early Spring of 2003 this compared favorably to most of the other jobs I saw online from abroad, and in the two years I ended up spending in China most of the foreign teachers I met were making something similar to what I was.
So Cleric, it might be helpful if you would be willing to share the relevant facts about the job you have--because if the conditions etc. are the same, if we aren't comparing apples to oranges, and you are getting paid twice as much for the same kind and amount of work, the next question becomes: where and how does one find such a job? Because I've been looking at online job sites and most of the salaries are about what I used to make.
Maybe if a number of us contributed such information we would end up with a realistic picture of the situation on the ground. |
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The Ever-changing Cleric
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 1523
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:33 am Post subject: |
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Tainan, if you're happy with 3500 then knock yourself out and take that job. But I'll say this, if this is all you're finding then you're not looking too hard and/or you're not asking any questions.
And just because a school advertises one salary doesn't mean its their limit and that's what you have to settle for. It really depends on supply and demand. If a school has no FTs then they'll often negotiate up, I've done it, and its easy to do if the school needs you. If you're in an advantageous position, why sell yourself short and take the first lowball offer?
My current job has no special requirements, and its no different from most of the jobs many people on this forum have. I work less than 16 hours per week, I make a lot more than 3600 per month and I have all the same benefits your standard university ESL job in China offers.
The place I work is listed here: China TEFL. The school still has an ad on that site.
Finally, this job I have is no secret, I've given the details of this place and this job to more than a half dozen job seekers in the past couple of years. Some were already in China, some weren't. Whether or not these people do anything with this information, I don't know and I don't care. What I do know is this: jobs with decent pay and very good working conditions abound here and you will find one of them if you put some effort into it and have a little patience. But the day I find myself taking jobs that pay the lowest wages on offer in China (~3500), then that's when I move on. |
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