Job Discussion Forums

[tmiddled]

Hey all,

My girlfriend and I are moving from Sydney (we are Australian citizens) to Hong Kong for approx. 6 months next year. I am hoping to get some information on my chances of working as an English teacher.

I have been working at the University of Technology, Sydney, tutoring an Engineering Design subject (I have a bachelor's in Mechatronics Engineering) for 2 semesters now, and will be 3 by the time I move to Hong Kong. However, I do not have a TESOL certificate, and have no experience in teaching English.

I would be willing to do the course if my chances are high of getting a job teaching English. However do not want to pay all that money if my chances are slim.

Is it easy to find only 6 months contracts, with no English teaching experience?

I would go for an Engineering job, however the same probably applies. No company wants to hire you for such a small amount of time.

Kind Regards,
Tom

[anninhk]

It isn't a problem finding work teaching English but you might have trouble getting a work visa.
Do you have any relatives from Australia or New Zealand working in Hong Kong? If you do there is a scheme for young people to work in Hong Kong on a temporary basis. You get a 3 months contract and then have to work in another place for 3 months. You can see the scheme if you go on the immigration department website.
Some of the NETs working here have brought their children to work here after school or uni on a temporary basis.

[Yes Sir I Can Bogey]

Ann, I'm not being funny, but the OP clearly stated that he has been working at a University in Australia, so what makes you think he would be willing � or would be eligible � to apply for the 'Young Persons' scheme you refer to? Do tertiary institutions Down Under employ kids?

To the OP, please don't take this the wrong way � I'm trying not to be too overly facetious � but what exactly are your views of teaching ESL, Hong Kong, and teaching ESL in Hong Kong? After all, given the questions you pose you don't seem to think too highly of any of these three things. What if I were to ask on an Australian-based Engineering forum what my chances of securing employment � for just six months � would be with no qualifications or experience in that field? Would you laugh or cry?

[MyCsPiTTa]

The difference might be that Australia has enough engineers that they can afford to pick and choose. But, as people are told time after time, the demand for native English speakers to teach English in Asian countries far outweighs the supply, and therefore (at least some) organsiations with give a job to anyone they can get their hands on.

Or at least this is what people are "told"... And herein may lie the problem.

There is contradicting information. Obviously a LOT of people just want to come to HK and get an entry level teaching job and maybe even be lucky enough to land a PNET - after all the EDB website clearly says all you need qualify for an actual PNET job is to be a native English speaker with a degree and a TESOL certificate. And surely the independant schools are even less picky (and hence lower paid).

But people clever enough to find their way to Dave's Cafe' quite often hear a different story... Now, I understand that there are many REAL teachers on here who, rightly, feel the need to stand up for their qualifications and experience. But the fact is the overwhelming amount of information out there (including the EDB webste) supports the notion that it IS easy to get low-level teaching jobs in HK. Not SNET or anything grander - just something to pay the bills for year or two's OE.

So basically you gotta cut people like the OP some slack when they turn up asking these naive-sounding questions.

I feel this way as I'm sort of in the same boat myself - although I'm hoping to get a job in my prefered field before having to look towards teaching (assuming there is a job for me! :-S)

[Yes Sir I Can Bogey]

It may be something of a mistake on your part to equate HK with the rest of Asia. There is no shortage of competent speakers of English here; it is, after all, an ex-British colony and English is one of three official languages of the territory, so institutions/employers here can be as choosy as those in the engineering field Down Under, perhaps even more so. Many locals are fluent in English and many Westerners are born and bred here. To the extent that there does exist a shortage of English teachers in HK, it is a shortage of appropriately qualified and experienced teachers (and I am sorry to say that you do not seem to be appropriately qualified or experienced). Most if not all institutions would rather simply leave a post unfilled rather than take on someone who is below par.

Regarding the EBD website and the PNET scheme, bear in mind that those are the minimum entry requirements, that is, what you need just to be eligible to be considered for the scheme. And, all because the EDB will consider you for the scheme with minimum qualifications does not mean that principals and school directors will take you. The EDB do not place NETs in schools, rather, they merely pass on/refer candidates to schools.

I do not follow your logic when you say that independent schools must be even less picky. The exact opposite is typically the case. Just take a look at staff profile pages at international and private independent schools (PISs); most if not all staff have a few BAs or BEds, a few MAs or MEds, and a few teaching certificates, and tonnes of experience.

Of course, you can always go and get work at a private training centre or a 'Glam Centre' like Wall Street English. They will pay you a whopping HK$18,000 a month for a mere 36 contact hours a week.

Given what you have said in your OP, my advice would be to seek work on the Mainland.

[MyCsPiTTa]

Regarding what has been said by YSICB; that's exactly the type of information I wish was a bit more obvious, and goes some way to confirming my own suspicions as of lately.

When I mentioned independant schools I guess I was refering to the private glam schools, yeah. But a job is a job... and those terms may be all the OP requires - it's only 6 months.

My wife is coming over to join me and would consider taking such a job (if she had to), just to pay the bills while I keep looking for jobs (very nice of her!) The problem may be, as you mentioned, whether those places will supply a visa. Great if they do... I could be a spouse! I guess that's something to look at on the job postings.

PS: when you say "mere 36 hours a week" I take that to be sarcasm? I understood teacher contact hours are usually 30hrs per week... So they overwork us for low pay, right? Mind you, compared to most jobs in HK even 36 hours is a part-time job! No wonder you only get $18K!

[Yes Sir I Can Bogey]

MyCsPiTTa, you say that "as people are told time after time, the demand for native English speakers to teach English in Asian countries far outweighs the supply". You concede that this may in fact be the very problem, but, I have to ask, who, exactly, is doing the telling? Also, I'm fairly sure you don't need me to tell you that 'Asia' is no small, monolithic region. To my mind at least the very best thing about 'Asia' is the sheer size and diversity of countries, cultures, peoples, and languages. China is but one part of Asia, a large and important part, granted, but nevertheless, it is but one part of the greater region. However, just look at the differences between different provinces in the PRC! These differences are arguably greater than between different countries in Europe. As for the differences between, say South Korea, Japan, and Singapore on the one hand, and India, Thailand, and Cambodia on the other.....

Anyway, regarding the 'glam centres', I was of course being sarcastic when I referred to a mere 36 contact hours for a whopping HK$18,000 a month (which is what I am told Wall Street English pay). Remember at all times that the special (i.e., housing) allowance on the NET scheme is around, I think, HK$13,000 a month, and NETs get that on top of their base salary. Teachers at international schools often receive a vastly higher housing allowance (I know of someone who receives HK$45,000 a month as a housing allowance). In other industries people often get vastly more still. There was an article in the SCMP on Sunday for example relating the story of pilots who have refused to re-sign another contract with their employer on account of the fact that their base salaries have been slashed from HK$75,000 a month (!) to but HK$40,000 due to the economic downturn.

The problem with working at a glam centre is that you � or your wife � simply won't have the time or energy, let alone the money, to enjoy the aspects of 'life' in HK (it's life, just not as we know it) that make living in HK at all worthwhile, and I mean that in all seriousness. Also, you say that your other half would consider taking such a job to pay the bills whilst you seek a post, but I am not at all convinced that the sort of wages earned at a glam centre could pay the bills, at least not for an adult couple. That HK$18,000 is gross, so you'd have to put aside around 10% for tax. Then you would have your rent (anywhere between HK$5,000 and Hk$10,000 a month, depending on what levels of 'Chineseness'/local culture you can tolerate). Then you'd have travel expenses, utilities, food, etc., etc. As for 'entertainment, well, it would probably be best to forget that. I went to a mid-range bar-cum-restaurant in Central just last night (not really my cup of tea but I had to go as I had been invited) and a pint of beer cost HK$80 and a second-rate pizza (read, 'piece of cheese on toast') set me back some HK$180. By the time my wife and I had finished eating and drinking I had spent in excess of HK$500. I suppose you could stay in and watch TV instead, if you are not working, but TV here is not too hot at all. I switched it on the other day and, on the one English-language channel there was a fascinating show entitled 'Europe's Richest People' (most TV in HK seems to be made to make people feel poor and inadequate) and on the other English channel there was a thrilling Barry Manilow concert on. On the two Chinese channels there was horse racing.

Also, bear in mind that if your wife takes a job at such a glam centre the department of Immigration may place you on a dependant's visa (though even this is not a given as, in Chinese culture, women do not support men, that is, wives 'cannot' support husbands � this is not a progressive society). This dependent's visa means you cannot work, and often means you cannot convert to an employment visa. Indeed, strictly speaking, you cannot even so much as seek work on such a visa.

You say that you understood teacher contact hours to usually be 30 hours per week, but I have never heard of any institution outside of the glam centre circuit that has such high hours. My contact hours at 'university' (in name if not in standards) here in HK have never gone above 14 a week, and most if not all NETs have similar contact hours. Again, I think you are confusing HK (and other similar city states such as Singapore and Brunei) with 'the rest' of 'Asia'. You say that compared to most jobs in HK 36 hours is part-time, but I think this shows you don't have much or any teaching experience. There are contact hours and there are work hours. The latter includes preparation time, marking, training, meetings, etc. 36 contact hours a week is ridiculous, and no one can be expected to teach for that amount of time. This is well understood. If you talk to the upper echelons of Wall Street English (as I have) they will say however that their 'teachers' don't need to teach, rather, they merely need to 'supervise learning', i.e., be in the classroom.

Amway, I wish you and your wife the best of luck. Just try to remember at all times that although HK is quite different in many regards from 'the rest' of 'Asia', it is still ultimately part of Asia, and so is still essentially chaotic in most if not all regards. This is not an attack on HK or on Asia. Indeed, one of the most charming and interesting features of any Asian state is the underlying chaos and the unpredictable/unaccountable features. Even Japan � surely the world's most organised, safest, most polite, and law-abiding state � has strange anomalies, not least the Yakuza head offices/mansions and their listings in telephone directories (one Yakuza-backed sokaiya gang/syndicate even maintains a website!).

HK is no different. It is safe and law abiding, but just go down to Sham Shui Po or Yau Ma Tei and you can see Triads galore. The point here is that HK too may well be known as an organised, forward-thinking, law-abiding, hard-working, efficient, fast-paced, customer-oriented state, but nothing could be any further from the truth! It must be the least organised, most traditional, most corrupt, laziest, least efficient, slowest, least customer-oriented place on the face of the planet.

[tmiddled]

I suppose my naivety on this matter is quite evident.

I was not trying to downgrade TESL in any sense. I have always thought of any kind of teaching in the highest regards, which I do on a casual basis and thoroughly enjoy. So I understand just how challenging and rewarding it can be.

Through some of my earlier travels, I have met quite a few people who traveled the world on TESOL positions, and it has always interested me greatly. More so since I first started casual teaching last year.

However, from the limited research I have done, it seems to me that Hong Kong is not the best place to start. My understanding, is that unless you are willing to work yourself into the ground, for questionable pay, it is very difficult for an inexperienced English Teach to find work.

So I suppose what I am asking, are the chances high for an inexperienced teacher to get work (casual, part time or full time) in a reputable institution/university? Of course I will have the appropriate TESOL certificates (what level would you recommend?) Or are the decent positions always reserved for experienced professionals?

I suppose I would only be looking at teaching over 18s. have experience teaching early 20s, and not sure I could handle primary/high school kids quite so well.

Thanks in advance,
Tom

[tmiddled]

I forgot to mention, that as I am an Australian Citizen, I understand it is quite easy for me to obtain a Working Holiday Visa.

[Marcoregano]

Hi Tom,

Given your background (general lack of relevant experience or quals) I'd say your chances of finding work at university level or similar are remote, whether p/t or f/t. Your best chance of casual work probably lies with private language schools. Private tuition is another possibility and would offer better pay, though would also be tricky to find for someone new to town. As regards quals, it'd be worth your while to get the standard 4-week certificate, either CELTA or Trinity - though if you're only going into TEFL for 6 months I'm not sure it's worth the bother.

[Marcoregano]

[MyCsPiTTa]

tmiddled, it does sound like you, AND me, would both need to realistically look to private language centres rather than the PNET scheme.
I don't think that would be the case if you look at Korea or Mainland China where they won't necessarily even reqire the TESOL.

Now I am really showing my ignorance here, but do the private language centres teach children or adults? Are they these schools I hear about where you are basically "a white face in the class for kids to interact with"? That surely sounds like the bottom of the barrel to me, but I was under the impression there are many places like that in HK with reasonably low entry requirements - ready to work us to the bone.

I have to genuinely thank YSICB for his detailed advice and clarification of some points. It should almost be a sticky...

Just to clear up a few things though:
- As far as I'm aware, as of 2006 dependants have no resptrictions on working at all. The problem might be that to qualify as a dependant your spouse needs to be earning enough to keep you in a lifestyle "substantially better" than subsistence. Heh, maybe $18,000 qualifies, maybe not... but we would barely be taxed on such a low income; something like 6%?

- I have my own savings to last me in Hong Kong for around 5 or 6 months if need be. My wife won't be solely paying the bills, but having an extra $18K to help out will make things easier. Then when I find a "real" job (no offense to glam centre workers) I would hope I could be the bill-payer and she could be a dependant while looking for more meaningful work herslef.
The point of working such a rough job is not to make a career out of it; simply to allow an extended stay in HK to explore opportunities more relevant to our careers. The alternative is that we both just go back home to NZ and try to find jobs there - which is not exactly the OE we had in mind.

So yes, I wouldn't be expecting to have much fun for my initial time here. I'm not having it now either, incidentally; I spend 10 hours a day job hunting . Asfar as TV goes, I wouldn't even own one - I haven't watched anything I haven't downloaded or borrowed for almost a decade now.

I will admit I have no teaching experience, however when I mentioned the "short" 36 hour week I was not refering to teaching - just your typical, overworked office-slave or high powered executive. So you would have a maximum of a 14 contact hour week? That's 3 classes a day, 5 day week? So the PNETs spend 5 hours a day, not including extracurricular activities on non-teaching tasks? Jesus, that would make our teachers back home very envious!

Thanks again for the reality hit. Sorry to hijack your thread tmiddled!

PS: Hey, I've only been here three weeks and even I know not to buy pizza in Hong Kong!

[Marcoregano]