Job Discussion Forums

[RiverMystic]

I've started dabbling (babbling?) in Cantonese after being in Hong Kong a few years. I'd like to encourage others to give it a go. I have to say it is much easier than I expected. It seems the locals here pride themselves on thinking that Cantonese is the most difficult language on the planet. When I first came to Hong Kong I was keen to learn, but was put off by the constant warning from HKers about how unbelievably hard it is, and how it is twice as hard as Mandarin "because there are nine tones, not four" (how many times have I heard that?). If tones were the main issue Russian would be dead easy, as it has only one, and judging from the one time I tried to pronounce a few words in Ruskie, that ain't so!

So, my first tip is, don't let the locals put you off!

I can already speak pretty good Putonghua, and I have found Cantonese to be much easier phonetically. And since there is quite a bit of overlap between the two languages (much more than I realised), it's been easy to pick up a basic vocab really fast. I have an introductory CD, which I also put on my MP3 player, and that has really helped in getting to know how to pronounce the basic sounds. The CD is Chris Lonsdale's (sp.?) Rhythmic Cantonese, parts 1 & 2. I find it very good, although I can't compare it to anything else, as it's the only one I have listened to. This CD is available at Pacific Coffee (where I got it) and in Dymock's bookstore.

I have not paid too much attention to tones - I seem to have got that pretty well under control after speaking Mandarin for years (but if Cantonese is the first tonal language you have learned, you will have to really pay attention to this, as it is one of the most common weaknesses for westerners beginning to speak Chinese -assuming u r a westerner!). I'm pretty good at regurgitating sounds I hear. The other thing that is much easier than Putonghua is that there is not the same level of problem regarding regional dialects - at least not in HK. In the mainland it can be a real hassle trying to use Putonghua in some places, because an awful lot of people don't speak it - about 47% of the population, according to one survey. It seems to be a lot easier for HK locals to understand a Cantonese beginner than mainland Chinese to understand a Putonghua beginner. So far, just about everything I've said has been comprehensible, which is very surprising. In the mainland, even now when I speak Putonghua, even though I am relatively fluent, some folks actually think I am speaking English! (I'll never work out how that is even cognitively possible) - while I can speak to others for many hours with few problems.

Since I am still in the beginner phase, I'd be interested to know how others have fared with learning Cantonese. Any tips or resources? Is there a language school you'd recommend? Personally, I'm not going to invest a huge amount of time, simply use it for fun and convenience. If I can build a vocab of, say 2000 words, that would be fine for me.

[Marcoregano]

I often feel guilty that I haven't learnt even basic Cantonese - in fact, like most expats here I know only a few words and can't even count to ten. I did have a few lessons during a lull in work (back in 2002 I think), enough to realise that as you say, RM, it's not as difficult as it's cracked up to be, but then I got busy with work again and that was that. Those lessons, btw, were with a Norwegian lady who's fluent in Canto (and English!) and she still does Canto classes - and is quite well known as she's quite savvy with the media. Can't recall her name.

The underlying problems with me are 1. lack of motivation and 2. lack of time and 3. you can get by without it and 4. at any one point in time I never thought I was going to be here more than another year or two and 5. I don't like the language - I don't like the sound of it and 6. it's unlikely to be much use workwise unless you get pretty good.

Admittedly they are all crap excuses.

Now, if I could wind the clock back to 1999 when I first arrived...

Before coming here I lived in Korea for just two years but was getting along with the language quite well. Different country, different people, much nicer language.

[suwonkid]

Which is more common in Hong Kong? I have started learning Cantonese. Would I be better off learning Mandarin instead?

[RiverMystic]

Are you in Hong Kong? Cantonese actually has fairly limited usage in the world these days. Most places where yo are likely to go where it is spoken as the main language are also places where English is spoken - e.g. HK, Chinese expat communities. The one exception would be Guangdong province in sourthern China.

Overall, Manderin is the more useful, and a better bet for the future. It is the official language of modern China, is the standard business language, and is far more widely spoken. It is basically an imperial language (colonial, but within the empire - China is more of an empire than a country in my opinion), with an obvious political function. Even though only 53% of people in the mainland can communicate effectively using Putonghua, this will undoubtedly increase as the years pass. It also pays to remember that the standard simplified form of written Chinese is pretty much universal in mainland China, so even if you can't understand a f%#&ing word they are saying, you can still write it down - if you take the time to learn a bit of reading and writing.

RM

[Marcoregano]

[Yes Sir I Can Bogey]

I would recommend Cecilie Gamst Berg, who I guess is the Norwegian lady Marcoregeno refers to. She does - or at least used to do - a radio programme:

http://www.rthk.org.hk/rthk/program_archive.cgi?progdir=radio3/naked_lunch&event_name=Naked+Lunch+%0A

http://podcast.rthk.org.hk/podcast/item.php?pid=45

It's called 'Naked Cantonese with Cecilie Gamst Berg'. She also teaches Mandarin. You can also get some IPod stuff from her website:

http://www.happyjellyfish.com/index.htm

I'd also recommend her book, 'Blonde Lotus'. It's quite funny:

http://www.happyjellyfish.com/blondelotus.htm

People like Cecilie Gamst Berg are important because ultimately the real problem with learning Cantonese is finding a good teacher. Everyone, of course, blames their teachers (after they�re through blaming their parents) but finding a teacher of anything in Hong Kong who doesn�t have vestiges of a village schoolmaster/Confucian/rote approach is a far from simple task. The teacher of the first Cantonese course I sat through was especially so. He talked quite literally 98% of the time in (reasonable) Hong Kong English. An inordinate number of teachers in Hong Kong believe that this is what teaching means: standing at the front of the class hectoring, proving that you know the subject to a certain extent. It comes as a revelation that students can actually do things.

In our course we didn�t do much at all except try to fathom out what the teaching method was. Actually, it was quite revolutionary. Instead of the boring old routine of outlining the new vocabulary and structures, then reading a text and transferring the knowledge into the actual and personal spheres, we were told to read texts in transcribed Cantonese without knowing what the hell they meant. After a few minutes of confusion, the teacher then told us what bits of the text signified but it was difficult to see how those bits were related to what we had done before and they never had any connection to what we were going to do afterwards. I think the teacher made it up as he went along. We learnt about the MTR (Wan Chai is the Cantonese for Wan Chai and Yau Ma Tei is the station called Yau Ma Tei). We were introduced to Chinese family relationships (sister�s husband�s wife, etc.) but we didn�t learn how to address the boss�s mistress and how the mistress differed from the girlfriend. We learnt how to request the bill at a restaurant but we didn�t learn the phrase for �What�s this addition here?� We learnt how to get out of a taxi we didn�t learn how to find one.

Cantonese isn�t all that difficult. You just have to have the will to learn it. Desire and need just simply aren�t enough. I pity anyone who actually has to learn Cantonese. Curiously, I also feel for those who desire to learn it. Maybe they don�t know about the 5,000 or 6,000-odd nicer sounding languages in the world. There is a theory that says that there is no such thing as an ugly-sounding language. It all depends on the personality of the speaker, they say. I beg to differ. I speak Afrikaans and I know that there are ugly languages. I don�t even think English is all that marvelous except in its dialects and regional variants. But Cantonese! Cripes! Where are the delicate speakers of Cantonese?

Even when you�ve mastered Cantonese though, it�s no good. People just don�t believe you. A friend of mine has been learning and speaking Cantonese for some twenty-eight years. He began learning it in the police when he was in plain clothes and he has all kinds of qualifications in the language. He even appears on telly from time to time on the Chinese channels as a sort of alibi, token gwailo. Even seems to be able to follow him. But this taxi driver just doesn�t want to understand him. �It�s like that sometimes�, my friend says. �They see your face and they just can�t believe you are speaking their language. It�s a kind of racism really, not believing a foreigner can speak your language even though he�s doing it. But you learn to live with it.�

My friend is an exception, of course, Most foreigners who have lived in Hong Kong for many years hardly know how to count to ten in Cantonese. Some are proud of the fact. Then there are the Old China Hands who have a smattering of Cantonese, just outside the run-of-the-mill range of phrases foreigners usually pick up. It all sounds marvelous until they�re confronted with a native speaker who can�t fathom out what they�re on about. Often, little old local ladies nod along and pretend to understand. Local people are nice that way.

Foreigners don�t learn Cantonese because they don�t like the Cantonese people enough. In actual fact, not many people like the Cantonese enough to learn their language. This seems to include people from Beijing.

[RiverMystic]

Yes, we can all agree that in the long history of nasty, horrible, ugly-sounding languages which are so nasty as to make even ordering a bowl of noodles sound like a raucous challenge to a death match, Cantonese is undoubtedly the nastiest. Still, that's half the fun of it. I'm never going to be a great speaker of Cantonese, but I can have fun spitting it out now and again.

[Yes Sir I Can Bogey]

RM, thought you might appreciate the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qz3Xi_vl-9c

There is a whole series so take a look through them! Take a look at a TV documentary on her, too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs5CWBXm-JA&feature=related

[joey2001]

[Yes Sir I Can Bogey]

[joey2001]

[RiverMystic]

I didn't say Cantonese was easier than Mandarin, Joey. Without re-reading what I wrote a couple of weeks ago, my experience is that it is phonetically easier. Overall, with tones included, it's probably about the same. I do agree that Beijinghua is just awful. But it's the lower classes (for want of a better term) that have the strongest accents. They have this awful nasal drone, and many barely open their mouths to talk, resulting in a, droning, mumbled unintelligible sound coming forth. Taxi drivers are the absolute worst. I have actually met Beijing people who do not move their lips when talking! Seriously! They would make great ventriloquists, except that to get a job as a ventriloquist you have to be intelligible.

I have, however, found an inordinate amount of people who find Cantoese to be an awful langauge to listen to. Northern Chinese, and Taiwanese, are pretty universal in that assesment. I have to agree. It is just so harsh to the ear.

[joey2001]

[Yes Sir I Can Bogey]

Joey, you are quite right that, in some frameworks, Cantonese is a conservative language, but in others it is an incredibly vibrant, ever-changing tongue (as are indeed all languages). I just wonder, to the extent it exists, how much of that 'conservatism' is some form of knock-on effect and/or interference from the written language. After all, the traditional, complex characters are of course vastly older than the simplified characters used for example on the Mainland. That is trivially true. My question to you is what do you mean by Cantonese being 'older' than Mandarin? I guess you are referring to the written script?

Regarding tones, it is true that some recognise six while others claim there are nine, but still others assume there are eleven, and some only five. It all depends on what one means by a 'tone'. These things are not floating around the universe independent of humans. To the extent that they exist, they only exist in the minds of speakers. Those working within research into Cantonese voice recognition software up at CUHK have untold problems attempting to program computers to 'recognise' tones, as the tones are not concrete entities, but rather are highly subjective, at least in absolute acoustic terms, often being radically influenced by factors such as gender and age.

[joey2001]