Job Discussion Forums

[qumath]

Hello everybody,

Please could anyone tell me what level of TEFL / TESOL is acceptable in HK? I'm thinking of going over to teach English. I'm a BBC (British Born Chinese) and have a degree in English Literature and Language but no teaching experience.

I know CELTA is the 'recommended' one but I'm thinking I might get away with a 2 day course because of my degree however there are so many, I honestly don't know which to choose. I've been looking at the i-i course, any thoughts on this particular one?

Also, realistically, can I only expect to work in a language centre?

Thanks!

[Marcoregano]

Hi Qumath,

I'd strongly recommend getting the full CELTA or Trinity - those short courses are a rip off and don't help you much at all. Any decent school will expect that you've done a proper course.

If you get one of the above you might have an outside chance of getting on the HK Govt's Primary NET programme (PNET), but your chances would improve with some teaching experience, or better still of course, a PGCE.

[mcgillaa]

From my experiences of going through the selection processes so far, it has become clearer and clearer that what Marcoregano states is correct. I took my ESL through Oxford Seminars, which has in class training ,but very limited practicum time. The standard that I have been running into is either a CELTA, or a certification that has 100 hours of instruction with 20 hours of evaluated practicum. This is the bare minimum that a lot of schools, including the language centers I have interviewed with, have stated they will take.

Hope this helps.

[Yes Sir I Can Bogey]

Increasingly a mere CELTA or equivalent no longer cuts the mustard, not even for subsistence level jobs at private training centres. For a recent post I applied for at a tertiary institution the bare entry requirements were a relevant degree (i.e., Linguistics, English Language, Education), a CELTA or equivalent, and a minimum of four years full-time teaching experience, at least two years of which had to be in a (First World) Asian country. As it happens though, those who were offered a post (of which I was one) all had a relevant undergraduate degree, a relevant postgraduate degree, and at least a CELTA or equivalent, and at least six or seven years of experience. Many had two � and in one case a candidate had three � relevant postgraduate degrees, and many had both a CELTA and a DELTA, or equivalent. A few others were also certified IELTS trainers and examiners. I didn't take the post in the end but the fact remains that competition, and thus standards, are high. I should add that the salary being offered was in no way high, and in fact was only HK$30,000 (a real pittance today in HK).

You say you have a degree in English Language and Literature but the problem here is that there are also many locals with such a degree, too. All the universities here are EMI, save for one or two Chinese language and history courses at one or two institutions.

You will probably experience problems trying to secure work at a language centre as a BBC (I'm a BBC too, though I am a British Born Caucasian!). Hack tutorial centres, language centres, and upmarket glorified training centres such as Wall Street English and the British Council usually demand 'western' faces as window dressing, even if they have wholly incomprehensible thick Irish and Scottish accents. In all my time in HK I am yet to even hear of a single non-Caucasian at the British Council, for example.

Also, you may face difficulties finding a smaller, lesser known training centre that is able to sponsor your visa.

[Marcoregano]

[Yes Sir I Can Bogey]

Assuming you are correct, how, out of interest, do they � without resorting to Third Reich-like tactics � define and identify non-Caucasians, so as to employ a 'proportionate' number? What do they do? Measure the angle and/or size of the eyes and/or grade the skin colour or something�..?

Have you not seen the sheer number of job advertisements � even from large, 'respectable' employing institutions � that require a photo to be attached to applications? Are you unaware that the HK government's recent attempt at formulating and introducing an anti-discrimination/anti-racism law was roundly condemned by most if not all international equal opportunities bodies as being inherently racist?

[Marcoregano]

Yes, racism is common in HK but it doesn't apply to everyone or every school.

[Yes Sir I Can Bogey]

Well, it applies to the government. A chap I know whose grandparents came here from Tunisia applied for a hawker's license and was refused. The reason given � in writing � was that he was "not Chinese". He was confused by this as he was born here and so is a permanent resident, and speaks fluent Cantonese and can read and write traditional, complex characters. He naively thought at first they meant 'not from Hong Kong' when they stated that he was "not Chinese" and so he wrote asking for clarification. They happily replied, again, in writing, that he was "not of Chinese ethnic background" and so could not be granted a hawker's license.

Now, imagine if in the UK, US, or Australia (or wherever) someone wishing to invest in a little business such as a mobile hotdog stall was refused a license on the grounds that they were not of Caucasian, Anglo-Saxon, or Teutonic origins. That would certainly raise a few eyebrows, wouldn't it?

The racism in Hong Kong is deeply ingrained into the very fabric of society.

[qumath]

Thanks guys for your replies.

I have a HKID card so I won't need a visa.

The more I research into the possibility of teaching in HK the more confused I become. I have trawled through this forum and many others and I am truly perplexed.

'Yes Sir I Can Bogey', you paint a very competitive and from your perspective, what you deem to be a realistic portrait of the industry as it is today. And yet I can read hundreds of other posts that paint a very different picture. I have many friends in HK and my parents also reside there - all tell me that HK are crying out for native english teachers (not specifically referring to the government NET scheme).

'Yes Sir I Can Bogey', after reading your reply, even if I were to achieve a CELTA TEFL certificate, coupled with my paltry English degree, I may as well not bother heading over, right? I genuinely believed there to be a shortage of native english speaking teachers or is it truly saturated? Does anyone else have any other opinions regarding this?

I am aware of the inherent racism of the HK people, particularly when it comes to English teachers and am prepared for this. You also said that I would encounter problems even securing work at a language centre ... again, not from what I've heard from friends. I know many BBCs who walked into such jobs (with fairly good pay) without encountering any problems.

I would be interested as to what other people's input on this is, particulary any Chinese native English speakers.

[Marcoregano]

Qumath, in most posts YSICB seems to delight in painting a dark and gloomy picture - take it all with a pinch of salt. As I've said here and elsewhere, I reckon you'll find work in HK easily enough, though the NET scheme may prove out of reach until you upgrade your quals and experience.

[Pelican_Wrath]

[Yes Sir I Can Bogey]

[Yes Sir I Can Bogey]

Qumath, you are of course free to 'listen' to whoever you want. One thing I would say, though, is that if I were you, I'd take everything Marco Regano says with a pinch of salt, if not a whole cellar. He certainly paints a more positive picture of HK than myself, but then, as he has freely admitted in other posts on the forum, he sees HK from the vantage point of someone who has a non-teaching post with the HK government and whose wife is a NET. Will you be able to secure such a post when arriving in HK? If not then you may not see HK through the rose-tinted glasses Marco wears. Also, Marco has written that he often finds himself rushing for the ferry to get home. So in other words he lives on one of the outlying islands, most likely Lamma. The question I would ask is, if HK and the people are so great, why then do so many people choose to cocoon themselves in predominately �and sometimes exclusively � Western ex-pat ghettos such as Central/Soho and Laaah-ma?

[Anjin-san Hashimoto]

Dear Yes Sir I Think I Can Bogey - I saw this without the slightest hint of sarcasm - You are awesome. You are spot on.

I can't help but be reminded of another poster that used to write similar posts to yours who I also admired. Hmmm ... I wonder, is it almost midnight?

[Marcoregano]

YSICB, I won't stoop to replying to most of your laughable nonsense and/or your amateur detective work. Presumably you haven't visited the Outlying Islands, where, with the exception of DB, local people considerably outnumber the expat population. In fact, do you live in HK?

As to your obsession with proving that HKers are racist, the same could be argued of the UK, USA and many other countries - the vast majority of which exhibit far more crime (including violent crime) against minority peoples, than does HK. And coming back somewhat to the OP, what of the NET prog, which sees hundreds of non-HKers brought into local schools on very good salaries? I can't see Mainlanders being invited to UK schools and paid salaries in advance of most of the local teachers.