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Russell123
Joined: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 237
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 Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| suanlatudousi wrote: |
The suggestion to work to get experience and then get certification is simply moronic.
If you are not an actual teacher and expect to do the job semi-professionally, then go get your necessary certifications before even going within breathing room of a classroom. |
You sound a little insecure yourself there suanlatudousi.
Most teachers I know (and these are fully qualified B.Eds, and most with advanced degrees) tell me teacher's college was a complete wast of time they had to endure to get work. Their real education came in the classroom. If a teacher cares about teaching and his or her students, they will become good teachers. If they don't care they won't become good teachers despite whatever qualifications they have.
Maybe you are a good teacher, I don't know, but if you are too proud to use songs, TPR or any other tool that might be useful in language education, especially if you teach kids, then it seems like you are putting your fragile ego ahead of the needs of your students.
No one likes being a "dancing monkey", but there's a difference between using movement to re-enforce verbs and dressing up as santa claus for the local education officer's christmas party! |
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suanlatudousi
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 384
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:51 am Post subject: |
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Where is the insecurity in my post ?
There is a huge difference in movement to demonstrate/describe a verb than taking a guitar and singing songs 20 hours a week, coming to class hungover, etc.
Proud ? There is more than one method to teaching. TPR is hardly the one and only, the gold standard, or the fool-proof method to teaching language or anything else for that matter.
China is overrun with unqualified ...
Why bother...
And... dressing as Santa Claus ? Not everyone needs to be the foolish foreigner center of attention individual. |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:09 am Post subject: |
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I think Suanlatudousi is right in his self eval....
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| Still another example of low-self-esteem that it takes to anonymously attack the individual rather than the issue. |
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Mr. Kalgukshi
Mod Team
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 6613
Location: Need to know basis only.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| My suggestion is that everyone get back on topic and discuss it and not each other. The next personal attack, insult, off-topic aside will result in a temporary or permanent vacation from the board. |
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Yes Sir I Can Bogey
Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Posts: 201
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| Russell123 wrote: |
| suanlatudousi wrote: |
The suggestion to work to get experience and then get certification is simply moronic.
If you are not an actual teacher and expect to do the job semi-professionally, then go get your necessary certifications before even going within breathing room of a classroom. |
You sound a little insecure yourself there suanlatudousi.
Most teachers I know (and these are fully qualified B.Eds, and most with advanced degrees) tell me teacher's college was a complete wast of time they had to endure to get work. Their real education came in the classroom. |
I find this hard to understand. Do you mean it was the biggest waste of time that they had to endure in order to get work? Anyway, you seem to be suggesting that there is teacher training on the one hand and actual classroom experience on the other. Perhaps you are not aware, perhaps these teachers with advanced degrees you know did not inform you, but building up classroom experience is a part � indeed, an integral part � of any teacher training. Indeed, most if not all teacher training courses that lead to QTS typically have many months of observed classroom teaching, and sometimes an entire year. |
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Russell123
Joined: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes Sir I Can Bogey wrote: |
| Russell123 wrote: |
| suanlatudousi wrote: |
The suggestion to work to get experience and then get certification is simply moronic.
If you are not an actual teacher and expect to do the job semi-professionally, then go get your necessary certifications before even going within breathing room of a classroom. |
You sound a little insecure yourself there suanlatudousi.
Most teachers I know (and these are fully qualified B.Eds, and most with advanced degrees) tell me teacher's college was a complete wast of time they had to endure to get work. Their real education came in the classroom. |
I find this hard to understand. Do you mean it was the biggest waste of time that they had to endure in order to get work? Anyway, you seem to be suggesting that there is teacher training on the one hand and actual classroom experience on the other. Perhaps you are not aware, perhaps these teachers with advanced degrees you know did not inform you, but building up classroom experience is a part � indeed, an integral part � of any teacher training. Indeed, most if not all teacher training courses that lead to QTS typically have many months of observed classroom teaching, and sometimes an entire year. |
Yes, good point. You are absolutely correct. I was referring to the academic instruction, workshops and so on. The placements (provided you have good support) are extremely valuable.
My point is that learning to teach is done best on the job, whether you are back home or here in China. To suggest that someone needs to get certification "before even going within breathing room of a classroom" ignores the realities of teaching ESL in this country.
If you show up for class prepared, sober, enthusiastic, willing to learn, and especially if you show up caring about your students, then that immediately puts you in the top quartile of ESL teachers here in China. Maybe even in the top tenth percentile.
The truth is, China is the good place to get teaching experience precisely because you can learn on the job. Most TEFL certs are worthless (mine certainly was, beyond helping me get my work visa). Most schools don't care if you do a great job or a mediocre job, so you can try new things, stumble a bit, and still do right by your students.
I've seen gifted unqualified teachers and useless qualified teachers.
On a more general note, I believe an obsession with accreditation usually signals the degeneration of any profession, and this especially applies to teaching.
But for anyone thinking of applying for teacher's college, I think a year or two in China is a great way to get your feet wet. |
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Dan The Chainsawman
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 302
Location: Yinchuan
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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I don't see anyone denying that professionalism from teachers is a desirable quality.
What determines a qualified teacher from an unqualified teacher, in my opinion, is attitude. The certifications, scraps of paper, and other clutter have no real bearing on attitude.
A teacher with a good attitude towards professionalism and who devotes a good deal of effort to their position is by far superior to a teacher who doesn't have a good attitude.
By professionalism I do not mean wearing a suit and tie and acting like you have a stick jammed up your arse. I do mean showing up to work sober, on time, showered, shaved, and ready to work. I also mean teachers who put energy into what they teach as well.
The irony for me is most of the teachers with the worst attitudes have been ones who did their time in a teacher's college.
One of the biggest drunks I ever met in Korea is a guy who still rolls into work pissed out of his mind and still has the energy to remind people of his MA of Education. |
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Sugar Magnolia
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
Posts: 233
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:20 am Post subject: |
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As far as teaching in China is concerned, all you need is an online TEFL certificate. Every job I have had or applied for required a TEFL certificate. They didn't know or care whether it was acquired online. They just wanted to see the piece of paper.
So, if you want to teach in China, why waste your time and money getting a CELTA? As others have mentioned, most of your real "teaching" education will be acquired in the classroom.
"i-to-i" www.onlinetefl.com cost me $150 four years ago. I learned a few things and it has helped me get jobs here in China. I'd say it was money well spent.
Good Luck! |
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Yes Sir I Can Bogey
Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Posts: 201
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Russell123 wrote: |
| If you show up for class prepared, sober, enthusiastic, willing to learn, and especially if you show up caring about your students, then that immediately puts you in the top quartile of ESL teachers here in China. Maybe even in the top tenth percentile. |
I think that says more about the 'quality' of 'teachers' in China than it does about teacher training. |
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Hansen
Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 737
Location: central China
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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While CELTA may be useless in China, the OP may decide to move on. Other countries may prefer or even require CELTA. In Japan, for instance, at least one company specifically asks about the type of TEFL, TESOL, or whatever. They want to know if it was an online or classroom learning experience.
CELTA training was expensive in the States. It may be well worth it in the long term. Having a TESOL made a difference for me in one job in China. I may have gotten the position without it, but I could see that the person hiring me was impressed by the TESOL.
If ever there was a place that values form over substance, China is it. The more degrees, certificates, bells, whistles, the better. |
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DoubleDutch
Joined: 01 Apr 2009
Posts: 51
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 3:42 am Post subject: |
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I'm not intending to go to China just for the short term. I'm in it for the long haul. I believe there's enough in China to explore to keep me busy for a while. 
So if you're saying an online certificate is good enough for China, then it's good enough for me. And while I believe in keeping my options open, if I decide to move on, I could always do a CELTA or equivalent then. If it doesn't significantly improve my options of landing a job in China now, I am tending towards taking the 'easy option' (or anyway the less expensive one).
I have the teaching experience, both classroom (be it not ESL) and private, so that is not really my concern here. Doing a TEFL certificate course at this point is mostly to get my head into gear for teaching English again, and to show prospective employers that I'm professional and come well-prepared (as much as a cert can show that). |
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The Ever-changing Cleric
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 1523
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 5:41 am Post subject: |
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| DoubleDutch wrote: |
| So if you're saying an online certificate is good enough for China, then it's good enough for me. And while I believe in keeping my options open, if I decide to move on, I could always do a CELTA or equivalent then. If it doesn't significantly improve my options of landing a job in China now, I am tending towards taking the 'easy option' (or anyway the less expensive one). |
If you have teaching experience, then that's about all you'll need to work here. Come on over and find a job, and work for a few months to see if you like it before committing to anything else. But remember, teaching here is not the same as in other places, something you'll quickly discover. Don't set your hopes too high. And bring a lot of patience. |
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The Ever-changing Cleric
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 1523
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| Russell123 wrote: |
| Yes Sir I Can Bogey wrote: |
| Russell123 wrote: |
| suanlatudousi wrote: |
The suggestion to work to get experience and then get certification is simply moronic.
If you are not an actual teacher and expect to do the job semi-professionally, then go get your necessary certifications before even going within breathing room of a classroom. |
You sound a little insecure yourself there suanlatudousi.
Most teachers I know (and these are fully qualified B.Eds, and most with advanced degrees) tell me teacher's college was a complete wast of time they had to endure to get work. Their real education came in the classroom. |
I find this hard to understand. Do you mean it was the biggest waste of time that they had to endure in order to get work? Anyway, you seem to be suggesting that there is teacher training on the one hand and actual classroom experience on the other. Perhaps you are not aware, perhaps these teachers with advanced degrees you know did not inform you, but building up classroom experience is a part � indeed, an integral part � of any teacher training. Indeed, most if not all teacher training courses that lead to QTS typically have many months of observed classroom teaching, and sometimes an entire year. |
Yes, good point. You are absolutely correct. I was referring to the academic instruction, workshops and so on. The placements (provided you have good support) are extremely valuable.
My point is that learning to teach is done best on the job, whether you are back home or here in China. To suggest that someone needs to get certification "before even going within breathing room of a classroom" ignores the realities of teaching ESL in this country.
If you show up for class prepared, sober, enthusiastic, willing to learn, and especially if you show up caring about your students, then that immediately puts you in the top quartile of ESL teachers here in China. Maybe even in the top tenth percentile.
The truth is, China is the good place to get teaching experience precisely because you can learn on the job. Most TEFL certs are worthless (mine certainly was, beyond helping me get my work visa). Most schools don't care if you do a great job or a mediocre job, so you can try new things, stumble a bit, and still do right by your students.
I've seen gifted unqualified teachers and useless qualified teachers.
On a more general note, I believe an obsession with accreditation usually signals the degeneration of any profession, and this especially applies to teaching.
But for anyone thinking of applying for teacher's college, I think a year or two in China is a great way to get your feet wet. |
An excellent post Russell. |
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Hansen
Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 737
Location: central China
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 6:23 am Post subject: |
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DD,
I'll make things easy for you. Here are the most important things I learned in CELTA:
Grading: Grading refers to presenting material appropriate for the learning level of the students.
"PPP" refers to presentation, practice, production. You present a language item, such as pronunciation of the [th] sound. Then have the students practice it through chorusing, with their partner and with themselves. They then present the item by saying a sentence containing the [th] sound.
"Concept checking" is also important. Rather than ask "Got it?" require the students to demonstrate their acquisition of the item. With the [th] sound, they must demonstrate the correct pronunciation, not simply nod their heads to indicate understanding.
"ICP," initial controlled practice, takes the pressure off students. Allow them to practice as a group and with a peer before requiring individual demonstration. While you may have trouble getting a single student to stand up and repeat a sentence or a few words, most will do it in a group.
The CELTA program allows you to put these things to practice in a controlled and supervised setting, which is an advantage over the online approach; however, I agree that getting a $150 online TEFL may be the smarter option when coming to China. Getting a CELTA in the States could cost you close to your first year salary in China.
If you do decide to move on, you can get CELTA later. Also, without some language teaching experience, some of the CELTA requirements are difficult to understand. Until you have taught in China, you won't really know the unique problems pertinent to teaching Chinese students.
Hope this helps.
Last edited by Hansen on Tue May 05, 2009 10:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Sugar Magnolia
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
Posts: 233
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 8:31 am Post subject: |
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Everything mentioned above was covered, perhaps not quite as extensively as in a CELTA course, on the "i-to-i" online TEFL certificate course.
www.onlinetefl.com
It wasn't particularly difficult but not necessarily easy either. After each section/unit I had to take a computer exam. Then in order to move onto the next section, usually a "homework assignment" was given that I had to email to my "tutor". He would "grade" it and either pass me or require changes.
At the time I took the course I wasn't working and it took about 2 months to complete.
You might also look into the "Bridge Linguatec" online course.
Good Luck! |
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