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lpm782
Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Posts: 30
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 Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| Hansen wrote: |
| I'd like to here more about that fight. |
It was a guy in my apartment building smacking his wife around. It woke me up at around 3am. I finally got so tired of it (this went on for about 20 minutes) that I went upstairs and put his head into a wall. Hard. It knocked him unconscious and I ended up having to pay a fine. I have always known in my heart that some women just like getting their ass beaten. I should have left it alone and let her take her lumps-- no matter how angry it makes me to see a woman get hit. |
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lpm782
Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| Silent Shadow wrote: |
| lpm782 wrote: |
Um, you might want to go over your notes about Chinese students finding math and science a breeze.
I've seen more than one Mainland Chinese student be kicked out or drop down to a MS degree when they arrived in the States.
1. The best students (Chinese) seem to come from Taiwan/ HK. When I was at SIUE, I was talking to one of the faculty members and he mentioned that the people from HK/ Taiwan were "lovely people." But lately they had been getting idiots from the Mainland and so they started taking fewer of them.
2. If you took the top 1% of Chinese people, you would have something like 13.5 million people. That is equal to something like 45% of the population of Canada. Is it really all that much to say that the top 1% of Chinese people are equal to the top 10% of Canada?
3. It is also not an erroneous generalization to talk about the idiocy of Chinese doctors. Less than 1/5 of Chinese doctors have the equivalent of a bachelor's degree. And my experience going to Chinese doctors is that if they aren't downright incompetent, they aren't thinking any further than what is the most expensive scrip they can write. I once got an infection for which fluoroquinolones were not effective (and I later found out that this was known to God and anyone else who took 90 seconds to look on the internet).
Recently, I also busted my hand in a fight and saw a couple of doctors. The first wanted to do a 20,000RMB surgery and keep me in the hospital for 9 days. The second wanted to do a 5,000RMB surgery-- for a joint that turned out to not even be dislocated or need a surgery.
Keeping corrupt, sloppy, incompetent, dishonest Mainland Chinese doctors out of their country would be the best, highest ROI that any country could possibly take.
But that doesn't change the basic advice: Since there are many other thousands of universities here that produce subpar students, the best thing to do is make the class as easy as possible. MOD EDIT |
Please explain how making the classes as easy as possible, is the best thing to do. |
Normal Human beings do two things: 1) Move away from pain; 2) Move toward pleasure. If you get paid 5,000 and everyone passes, that is fine. If you also get paid 5,000 and everyone fails (and you have to give resits), then you are doing more work than you need to. WORK THAT YOU ARE NOT GETTING PAID FOR.
I just don't see the point in getting all upset in worrying about the quality of degrees that are ultimately worthless anyway. |
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eddy-cool
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 1008
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| lpm782 wrote: |
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[do two things: 1) Move away from pain; 2) Move toward pleasure. If you get paid 5,000 and everyone passes, that is fine. If you also get paid 5,000 and everyone fails (and you have to give resits), then you are doing more work than you need to. WORK THAT YOU ARE NOT GETTING PAID FOR.
I just don't see the point in getting all upset in worrying about the quality of degrees that are ultimately worthless anyway. |
I deplore your philosophy, Ipm! May I ask you: Why do you stay in China if you have such a low view of their exams?
Surely a self-respecting teacher doesn't allow himself to be used and manipulated the way you apparently do allow them to use and abuse you? |
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Fred Smith
Joined: 06 Dec 2008
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| alter ego wrote: |
| Fred Smith wrote: |
| I have no empathy for students who do nothing for 10 weeks and expect to pass simple because they think they should. |
Why did you allow your students to do nothing for 10 weeks? Teaching is an adaptive process. Sure, some uni students will try to sleep, use their phones, and show you how lazy they are. Set your rules from day one and encourage as many students as possible to do something, anything, in every class. Do whatever it takes to inspire and motivate them to actively participate in your class. By letting them do nothing you may have been setting them up to fail.
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My job is to lecture regarding business topics. I am not their mommy and daddy.
I gave them rules many times and wake them up when they sleep but when they don't bring a pen or paper to class or seldom show up well it isn't my fault.
Set them up to fail? By that I guess you mean the Chinese eduacation system, not me. |
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Hansen
Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 737
Location: central China
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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Fred, While you narrowly define your job, I suggest that there is more to teaching than lecturing, especially here. If all they need is information, let them read a book. The students need inspiration, hope, a vision. A good teacher helps bring the possibilities of English to bear as a means to an end, the end being self realization, a resolution of the existential questions which they have yet to ask. LOL
Mr. Cool, I share the perspective of lpm. If students are allowed to resit, most,if they don't cheat, will also fail. There is no good reason that teachers must prepare two exams and give them. The culture of education in China is so corrupt by Western standards, why bother?
While I admire your perspective, I also realize the absurdity of it here, at least in the context in which I teach. I can give a student 10 tests. Some will never pass because they should have never been admitted into a technical English program in the first place. My school allows the students to fail a few classes anyway, without impacting their academic standing. I have failed a few students, refused a resit, and they appear none the worse for it.
The key, in my view, is to solve the problem before failing a student is required. Evaluate the scores a few weeks before the end of term and tell the students who are failing to write a paper, for instance, to bring their score up to passing. If they resist even that, then failure may be the only option.
As for me, I enjoy playing with long swords, so that's why I'm here. There are other reasons as well. I like to eat fresh baozi in the morning. I'm developing a taste for Hui mian, too. |
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lpm782
Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| eddy-cool wrote: |
| lpm782 wrote: |
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[do two things: 1) Move away from pain; 2) Move toward pleasure. If you get paid 5,000 and everyone passes, that is fine. If you also get paid 5,000 and everyone fails (and you have to give resits), then you are doing more work than you need to. WORK THAT YOU ARE NOT GETTING PAID FOR.
I just don't see the point in getting all upset in worrying about the quality of degrees that are ultimately worthless anyway. |
I deplore your philosophy, Ipm! May I ask you: Why do you stay in China if you have such a low view of their exams?
Surely a self-respecting teacher doesn't allow himself to be used and manipulated the way you apparently do allow them to use and abuse you? |
What do the exams of China have to do with anything? The reason that I stay here is because there is no more abundant supply of Asian women. Do you think Asian girls are a good trade off for corrupt exams? You strike me as someone who has just finished university (and is therefore an idealist [=no experience with the real world]). What is th point of worrying about something that you can't do anything about just for the sake of principle? I'm a 100% teetotal person (=never any alcohol under ANY circumstance). Does that mean that I should move to Saudi Arabia where no alchohol is allowed? I also am in favor of the legalization of all drugs and the gutting of the FDA. Does that mean that I should move to some African country where the laws are too weak to enforce anti drug policy? Or that I should go to America and sit in a jail?
| Quote: |
| Mr. Cool, I share the perspective of lpm. If students are allowed to resit, most,if they don't cheat, will also fail. There is no good reason that teachers must prepare two exams and give them. The culture of education in China is so corrupt by Western standards, why bother? . |
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! |
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Silent Shadow
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 380
Location: A stones throw past the back of beyond
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| lpm782 wrote: |
| Silent Shadow wrote: |
| lpm782 wrote: |
Um, you might want to go over your notes about Chinese students finding math and science a breeze.
I've seen more than one Mainland Chinese student be kicked out or drop down to a MS degree when they arrived in the States.
1. The best students (Chinese) seem to come from Taiwan/ HK. When I was at SIUE, I was talking to one of the faculty members and he mentioned that the people from HK/ Taiwan were "lovely people." But lately they had been getting idiots from the Mainland and so they started taking fewer of them.
2. If you took the top 1% of Chinese people, you would have something like 13.5 million people. That is equal to something like 45% of the population of Canada. Is it really all that much to say that the top 1% of Chinese people are equal to the top 10% of Canada?
3. It is also not an erroneous generalization to talk about the idiocy of Chinese doctors. Less than 1/5 of Chinese doctors have the equivalent of a bachelor's degree. And my experience going to Chinese doctors is that if they aren't downright incompetent, they aren't thinking any further than what is the most expensive scrip they can write. I once got an infection for which fluoroquinolones were not effective (and I later found out that this was known to God and anyone else who took 90 seconds to look on the internet).
Recently, I also busted my hand in a fight and saw a couple of doctors. The first wanted to do a 20,000RMB surgery and keep me in the hospital for 9 days. The second wanted to do a 5,000RMB surgery-- for a joint that turned out to not even be dislocated or need a surgery.
Keeping corrupt, sloppy, incompetent, dishonest Mainland Chinese doctors out of their country would be the best, highest ROI that any country could possibly take.
But that doesn't change the basic advice: Since there are many other thousands of universities here that produce subpar students, the best thing to do is make the class as easy as possible. MOD EDIT |
Please explain how making the classes as easy as possible, is the best thing to do. |
Normal Human beings do two things: 1) Move away from pain; 2) Move toward pleasure. If you get paid 5,000 and everyone passes, that is fine. If you also get paid 5,000 and everyone fails (and you have to give resits), then you are doing more work than you need to. WORK THAT YOU ARE NOT GETTING PAID FOR.
I just don't see the point in getting all upset in worrying about the quality of degrees that are ultimately worthless anyway. |
It's not about degrees or exams, it's about people! In this case, our students. You don't seem to understand the purpose of education. Exams and degrees are only a means to an end.
How about making the classes more challenging for the students so that they're able to acquire qualities and skills that will give them an advantage in the job market? Even if there are not enough jobs, if we can teach them to be more creative, independent,... they might just be able to start up small enterprises on their own. The more challenging life will be for them, then the more able they will need to be in order to cope with that challenge.
To say that we should make the classes very easy because there are not enough jobs, is lazy and defeatist. Even many students in China have a more positive atittude than that. How much more positive should a teacher be? Our job is to help students elevate themselves: to help them develop as people, so as to as to increase their chances of being successful in life. This can only be achieved with challenging lessons. |
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Silent Shadow
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 380
Location: A stones throw past the back of beyond
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| lpm782 wrote: |
| Silent Shadow wrote: |
| lpm782 wrote: |
Um, you might want to go over your notes about Chinese students finding math and science a breeze.
I've seen more than one Mainland Chinese student be kicked out or drop down to a MS degree when they arrived in the States.
1. The best students (Chinese) seem to come from Taiwan/ HK. When I was at SIUE, I was talking to one of the faculty members and he mentioned that the people from HK/ Taiwan were "lovely people." But lately they had been getting idiots from the Mainland and so they started taking fewer of them.
2. If you took the top 1% of Chinese people, you would have something like 13.5 million people. That is equal to something like 45% of the population of Canada. Is it really all that much to say that the top 1% of Chinese people are equal to the top 10% of Canada?
3. It is also not an erroneous generalization to talk about the idiocy of Chinese doctors. Less than 1/5 of Chinese doctors have the equivalent of a bachelor's degree. And my experience going to Chinese doctors is that if they aren't downright incompetent, they aren't thinking any further than what is the most expensive scrip they can write. I once got an infection for which fluoroquinolones were not effective (and I later found out that this was known to God and anyone else who took 90 seconds to look on the internet).
Recently, I also busted my hand in a fight and saw a couple of doctors. The first wanted to do a 20,000RMB surgery and keep me in the hospital for 9 days. The second wanted to do a 5,000RMB surgery-- for a joint that turned out to not even be dislocated or need a surgery.
Keeping corrupt, sloppy, incompetent, dishonest Mainland Chinese doctors out of their country would be the best, highest ROI that any country could possibly take.
But that doesn't change the basic advice: Since there are many other thousands of universities here that produce subpar students, the best thing to do is make the class as easy as possible. MOD EDIT |
Please explain how making the classes as easy as possible, is the best thing to do. |
Normal Human beings do two things: 1) Move away from pain; 2) Move toward pleasure. If you get paid 5,000 and everyone passes, that is fine. If you also get paid 5,000 and everyone fails (and you have to give resits), then you are doing more work than you need to. WORK THAT YOU ARE NOT GETTING PAID FOR.
I just don't see the point in getting all upset in worrying about the quality of degrees that are ultimately worthless anyway. |
It's not about degrees or exams, it's about people! In this case, our students. You don't seem to understand the purpose of education. Exams and degrees are only a means to an end.
How about making the classes more challenging for the students so that they're able to acquire qualities and skills that will give them an advantage in the job market? Even if there are not enough jobs, if we can teach them to be more creative, independent,... they might just be able to start up small enterprises on their own. The more challenging life will be for them, then the more able they will need to be in order to cope with that challenge.
To say that we should make the classes very easy because there are not enough jobs, is lazy and defeatist. Even many students in China have a more positive atittude than that. How much more positive should a teacher be? Our job is to help students elevate themselves: to help them develop as people, so as to as to increase their chances of being successful in life. This can only be achieved with challenging lessons. |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Our job is to help students elevate themselves: to help them develop as people, so as to as to increase their chances of being successful in life. This can only be achieved with challenging lessons. |
I would disagree, as I think it is the teacher's job to provide instruction in an understandable and procedural context so as to make available to the students the knowledge they need to achieve the academic goal...as to people skills...and as to their success in life, entirely up to them..and to their parents ...if there is a chaplin then he can get in on the act as well...
As to easy exams.. this is the trend in Education in recent years...more difficult teachers in the US have found their classes cancelled for lack of participation and the need for the bulk of the students to continue to the next level is sometimes a financial reality that many of the rank and file will never understand because they don�t deal with financial responsibilities...yea.. Some get passed cause the institution needs the operation cash.. but the justification is that the process will be financed and continue on so as to relay information to those who really care and are willing to help themselves... |
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alter ego
Joined: 24 Mar 2009
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| Fred Smith wrote: |
| My job is to lecture regarding business topics. I gave them rules many times and wake them up when they sleep but when they don't bring a pen or paper to class or seldom show up well it isn't my fault. Set them up to fail? By that I guess you mean the Chinese eduacation system, not me. |
Sure, some things we have no control over as teachers. But be careful with the word lecture, Fred. Do you know what TTT is? Just because you want to call yourself a lecturer doesn't mean you should give up using some of the fundamentals of communicative langague learning in your classroom. Do some role plays once in awhile. Do some dictation, and if a student doesn't have a pen and paper single them out and embarass them in a fun and humorous way and get another student to loan them some paper. Move the really lazy and unprepared students to the front row. Have your students work in pairs or small groups and move around to monitor their progress. Play some interview games. From what you've written, it sounds like you think teaching EFL is about standing up in front of the class (just like most of the Chinese teachers) and droning on and on about business topics. Sorry, but if you took a decent TEFL/TESOL training course you'd know this is the last thing that teaching is about. So what's TTT? Teacher Talk Time. It' not about TTT, it's about STT. Even in a business-oriented English class, most students must talk to learn, not learn to talk. |
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 11:12 am Post subject: |
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Did Fred say he taught English? I know, this is an ESL board, but maybe he isn't an English teacher. There is a big difference between teaching Chinese in English and teaching English.
Why would you role play in a business class? That sounds ridiculous. I could just imagine my classical Chinese professor getting us to role play. The problem here is that students are expecting to be spoon fed even when they are in university. Chinese students (and many other people) like to cling to what is easy, but life is not easy. There is a bar, some people can't get over it. The result of this is failure in university and joblessness in real life. No employer is going to lower the bar because an employee can't pull their weight, an idea students need to realize.
Also, there is some confusion between the idea of skills and knowledge. Knowledge might get them through an exam or paper, but only a skill can ensure they can handle such things in the future. Many students are stuck in the knowledge (practical) based learning. This means they only look at what is immediately in front of them. They need to change into a skills (abstract/theory) based mindset. If the student cannot make this change they will and should fail, as they are not fit for university. |
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Hansen
Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 737
Location: central China
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 11:25 am Post subject: |
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Why is role playing ridiculous in a business class? True, the type of business class is in question; however, rather than failing so many students, it would be better to tweak the course content. Do some negotiating sessions, some sales sessions, applying for a loan sessions. There are many business situations that lend themselves to oral English.
Our goal is not to shock on the students by slapping them in the face with Western educational standards. At least that is not my goal. |
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alter ego
Joined: 24 Mar 2009
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| wangdaning wrote: |
| Did Fred say he taught English? I know, this is an ESL board, but maybe he isn't an English teacher. There is a big difference between teaching Chinese in English and teaching English. Why would you role play in a business class? That sounds ridiculous. |
While you make some valid points, this is most likely a business English course, but even if it isn't, English is still their second or foreign language and the principles of communciative language teaching ALWAYS apply. All ESL/EFL classes should have role plays so students can practice their listening and speaking skills in everyday conversations. As Hansen suggested, asking why a teacher would role play in a business class and saying it sounds ridiculous shows either a lack of creativity or knowledge on your part. One of the top business English textbooks in China, Market Leader, has entire sections of role plays where students act out business scenarios in a wide variety of situations. |
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eddy-cool
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 1008
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 4:07 am Post subject: |
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| Hansen wrote: |
Fred, While you narrowly define your job, I suggest that there is more to teaching than lecturing, especially here. If all they need is information, let them read a book. The students need inspiration, hope, a vision. A good teacher helps bring the possibilities of English to bear as a means to an end, the end being self realization, a resolution of the existential questions which they have yet to ask. LOL
Mr. Cool, I share the perspective of lpm. If students are allowed to resit, most,if they don't cheat, will also fail. There is no good reason that teachers must prepare two exams and give them. The culture of education in China is so corrupt by Western standards, why bother?
The key, in my view, is to solve the problem before failing a student is required. Evaluate the scores a few weeks before the end of term and tell the students who are failing to write a paper, for instance, to bring their score up to passing. If they resist even that, then failure may be the only option.
As for me, I enjoy playing with long swords, so that's why I'm here. There are other reasons as well. I like to eat fresh baozi in the morning. I'm developing a taste for Hui mian, too. |
Thanks for addressing me directly and politely. I have noted that you agree with Ipsm and disagree with me. More on that in my reply to Ipsm.
If you think the education system here is so corrupt and rotten (which many systems in New World countries reputedly are too, that is because 'education' in the Anglo-Saxon New World is Big Business targeting foreigners) then going with the flow (as you and Ipsm suggest we all better do) is part of the problem because our employers then feel vindicated in their age-old practice and rightfully expect their students going abroad will be treated with the same kids' gloves by teachers at western universities. I vehemently oppose this mindset.
There are, luckily, a number of institutions and whole countries where such unethical practice is not tolerated.
The other point I can categorically refute, Mr Hansen, is your claim that students that fail the first time will fail the second and subsequent times.
Yes, some are so lazy that they will always fail; do you want to encourage them to remain that way by elevating them to the level of successful studednts? You are therefore part of the problem of this national sport called cheating!
But I assure you students need not fail a second time. It depends on whether you can get them to take things seriously. Just pandering to their whims may lead to the deplorable result(s) you stated; my own empriical insights show that there may be a different way with a different outcome. Not that I think students have a right per se to get a second chance. But in some cases, yes, it is worth sacrificing a little extra time - but only if the students get down to business and hone their skills! |
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Silent Shadow
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 380
Location: A stones throw past the back of beyond
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 4:13 am Post subject: |
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| evaforsure wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Our job is to help students elevate themselves: to help them develop as people, so as to as to increase their chances of being successful in life. This can only be achieved with challenging lessons. |
I would disagree, as I think it is the teacher's job to provide instruction in an understandable and procedural context so as to make available to the students the knowledge they need to achieve the academic goal...as to people skills...and as to their success in life, entirely up to them..and to their parents ...if there is a chaplin then he can get in on the act as well...
As to easy exams.. this is the trend in Education in recent years...more difficult teachers in the US have found their classes cancelled for lack of participation and the need for the bulk of the students to continue to the next level is sometimes a financial reality that many of the rank and file will never understand because they don�t deal with financial responsibilities...yea.. Some get passed cause the institution needs the operation cash.. but the justification is that the process will be financed and continue on so as to relay information to those who really care and are willing to help themselves... |
What part of developing do you disagree with? I don�t think it�s possible, nor indeed is it the ultimate objective to separate a student�s personal development from the development of their knowledge acquisition. By developing I mean acquiring skills and qualities that are essential for both learning their course subject and in helping them to be able to put that knowledge into practice.
A student's� development as a person is almost essential if they want to successfully acquire the knowledge content of any given course and reach their objectives. Without the correct attitude towards learning, a student will invariably make little or no progress in his knowledge acquisition. By extension, knowledge will be virtually useless if students are unable to use that knowledge to better themselves in some way. Being able to put knowledge into practice takes skill. Also, good personal qualities like being independent, responsible, patient and confident will surely help students successfully put their knowledge into practice and make it work for them. This is what I meant when I mentioned �Helping students develop�.
Even if a student�s only objective is to use what they learn to become rich, certain skills and personal qualities are essential if they want to become successful in the business sector. What if the academic goal is to communicate well in English? As language teachers how can the skills we need to teach students to make them better communicators not help them develop as people? To be a good communicator you also need to know how to communicate politely, how to persuade, reason, answer questions fully, patiently listen to other people�s views, respect the views of others, and more. Reaching those goals would surely entail the acquisition of positive skills and personality traits: in fact it would be essential.
Learning is mostly the responsibility of the learner, yet part of our job is to help them learn. Homework, personal practice, discipline and punctuality are mostly the responsibility of students, yet, it is part of our job to encourage them to be better at these things. It�s the same way, with success. Success in life is mainly their own responsibility, true. However, motivating, challenging, and inspiring students to have successful lives is an intrinsic part of an educators job, because that is one of the fundamental goals of education. See the link below:-
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/bertucci2.html
One thing I soon realized when I started teaching writing, to college students in China was that many if not most students, did not have the correct attitude towards writing. I would set a writing task in class and they would write, and invariably, I was often giving sloppily thought-out, untidy, untitled, poorly laid out, illegible, incoherent, and short specimens of writing, often written on the first thing they could find to write on. The inside of a fag packet, the back of an envelope, the back of last year�s exam, a scrap of paper picked up off of the floor�
What was wrong of course was their attitude. Attitude is everything! Furthermore, to have the correct attitude to something you need positive personal qualities. Until they learnt how to take pride in them selves and what they were doing, and learnt how to respect the reader, they were not going to improve. They had to learn to be patient, confident, purposeful, motivated and responsible. As they learnt these skills and qualities, their work improved, especially as I told them that the correct attitude would help them succeed in every facet of their lives, both now, and in the future. This creates a positive cycle. If the student realizes that the correct attitude towards their coursework can help them in the future, too, they will be motivated to learn their course content well, and in turn when they see good fruitage resulting in the fact that this attitude increases their progress in their coursework they will increase their effort and thus attain even more positive attributes that will serve them even better in the future.
Young people up to the age of college/ university graduation age and even beyond need more than just being taught their course content. They need to see what this course content has to do with their lives and how they can best use it to enhance their lives positively. Without such knowledge they will make little progress in reaching their academic goals
Learning is for life! |
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