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waxwing
Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 719
Location: China
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 Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 11:49 am Post subject: |
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The only thing that was actually problematic about Robin's original post was:
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| In China, my current salary at a university is 3,200 RMB a month. My teacher certification has no meaning in this country and does not bring any financial or other benefits. |
Not true at all. Anyway, I had read the tone of the post as rather bitter, now I read more carefully I see that Robin is not actually complaining. That's fine. But the post above, combined with this later description:
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In the jobs where I worked here on good salaries ( one was a year's contract on 7,500 almost 5 years ago, and the other was a six month contract on 9000 minus tax last year) what turned me off was the high stress levels. I was the meat in the sandwich. The bottom part of the sandwich were the expectations of parents (and some of their spoiled brat children) who had paid whopping fees to have western education. The top part of the sandwich was the layer of Chinese management staff who didn't understand the curriculum but behaved like control freaks or little Hitlers in trying to get me to jump through various hoops and otherwise interfere in teaching processes which they did not understand.
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... paints an inaccurate picture of what one experiences as a qualified teacher in this country. The pay can be good, and although there are troubles with management they are not insurmountable. Also it is not that hard to find very, very good students here (certainly not brats) which is much more than can be said for most other countries. |
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kungfucowboy83
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 479
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe there is some reason other than money why robin is working at his/her current school (at least i really hope so). i mean i might take a beach side apartment and 3500 per month for 10 periods per week teaching oral english (or something else with no marking involved) in hainan.
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| My teacher certification has no meaning in this country and does not bring any financial or other benefits. |
maybe it doesn't but it could if you wanted to work at an a center that trains students to go to foreign schools or an international school. You just have to do your research. you don't have to look for the same jobs that just anyone can get.
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In the jobs where I worked here on good salaries ( one was a year's contract on 7,500 almost 5 years ago, and the other was a six month contract on 9000 minus tax last year) |
these are not really "good" salaries for even a medium stress job. even a third tier international school will pay non-certified teachers 3x your current salary and will usually offer more for a certified teacher or a high demand subject. |
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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waxwing:
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| ...although there are troubles with management they are not insurmountable. Also it is not that hard to find very, very good students here (certainly not brats) which is much more than can be said for most other countries. |
I understand where you are coming from, but it is hard to criticize a criticism of the management of a school you never worked at. Sometimes you can get past it, but a management that changes your lessons, or pretends to be experts, is a hard one to get around. As for the students, unless your school allows you to be part of the matriculation process, you are stuck with what you get. Money talks, and many rich kids are brats. It is completely logical to go somewhere with lower pay but more freedom.
However, I think you could get a higher salary robin. If you don't want one, that's fine, I am glad you are happy.  |
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eddy-cool
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 1008
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| YAMARI wrote: |
Robin is a troll who probably hires for a company or school. The base salary at a very poor university is 4500.
Here is another gem- Beijing Science university or whatever its called (dont want to say the exact name) is asking for two teachers with an MA in English and they are offering a whopping 4000 salary.
I thought China was getting better? Looks like same old low salaries. |
Sad and pathetic nihilism! It really wasn't necessary to be so negative toRobin's post. Rather, his reply was an inspiration to many, and couldbe one to those whose horizon clearly hasn'tbroadened enough beyond the
outline of the
$ |
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alter ego
Joined: 24 Mar 2009
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 11:02 pm Post subject: Re: certified teachers |
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| xiao51 wrote: |
| But truthfully, what I have of seen of some of the "certified" expat teachers in this country makes me...and the students...and the student's parents cringe...one "certified" (aka foreign teacher) would throw desks at the students in fits of rage...and was not sacked...and the same teacher would throw books at the small children in fits of rage...and break their pencils in front of them, etc., etc. |
That particular teacher may have been a "certified" lunatic, but trying to connect erratic behavior to having a teaching credential from one's home country is a bit silly. The majority of native teachers certified in primary, middle, or high school education in their home countries are simply on paper more qualifed for the growing number of jobs that require them.
That's what education, i.e., degrees and credentials, is all about: giving people more power and choices in their careers. Making assertions like this just sounds like sour grapes by someone less academically qualified? |
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xiao51
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 11:32 pm Post subject: Re: certified teachers |
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| alter ego wrote: |
| xiao51 wrote: |
| But truthfully, what I have of seen of some of the "certified" expat teachers in this country makes me...and the students...and the student's parents cringe...one "certified" (aka foreign teacher) would throw desks at the students in fits of rage...and was not sacked...and the same teacher would throw books at the small children in fits of rage...and break their pencils in front of them, etc., etc. |
That particular teacher may have been a "certified" lunatic, but trying to connect erratic behavior to having a teaching credential from one's home country is a bit silly. The majority of native teachers certified in primary, middle, or high school education in their home countries are simply on paper more qualifed for the growing number of jobs that require them.
That's what education, i.e., degrees and credentials, is all about: giving people more power and choices in their careers. Making assertions like this just sounds like sour grapes by someone less academically qualified? |
Actually far, far, far high-degreed than the "certified" or is it "certifiable" teacher-in-question. Point one.
And no sour grapes...I just had to spend five months dealing with alarmed parents and some psychologically-battered little ones..Point two.
And point three the post was simply in support of Robin's original post, just in a different manner.
And as an addendum, point four is that such behavior in the United States, at least, by a teacher in a classroom (throwing desks, tossing books, breaking pencils in front of little children's faces, intiimidation, bullying, degradation) would at the least result in suspension of professional duties, loss of certification, and in some states, the involvement of the police. And some of the parents of the children involved in these incidents here are quite aware of that as they have lived abroad. So all of this just speak to the OP's point. |
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eddy-cool
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 1008
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 11:58 pm Post subject: Re: certified teachers |
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[
, point four is that such behavior in the United States, at least, by a teacher in a classroom (throwing desks, tossing books, breaking pencils in front of little children's faces, intiimidation, bullying, degradation) would at the least result in suspension of professional duties, loss of certification, and in some states, the involvement of the police. |
Get used to reality in China is what I say! Here so many a sex predator is on the prowl, and of course, even when they have an encounter with law enforcers they won't get disqualified as teachers and/or booted out of China.
Maybe thefact that theyare in most cases totally uncertified helps? |
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eddy-cool
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 1008
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 12:01 am Post subject: |
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Back to the original topic:
It really seldom matterswhether youarea certified teacher here.Come to think of it:Wheredo theycertify 'oral English teachers'? |
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xiao51
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 12:02 am Post subject: Re: certified teachers |
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| eddy-cool wrote: |
| wrote: |
[
, point four is that such behavior in the United States, at least, by a teacher in a classroom (throwing desks, tossing books, breaking pencils in front of little children's faces, intiimidation, bullying, degradation) would at the least result in suspension of professional duties, loss of certification, and in some states, the involvement of the police. |
Get used to reality in China is what I say! Here so many a sex predator is on the prowl, and of course, even when they have an encounter with law enforcers they won't get disqualified as teachers and/or booted out of China.
Maybe thefact that theyare in most cases totally uncertified helps? |
Eddy-Cool,
We have had our differences in the past but I must take my hat off to you, so to speak...I've been reading your posts on different threads this week and they have been really, really helpful.
Yes, you are right here..this is quite true what you write...I often think about how some of the foreign teachers behave like, excuse me, animals in the classroom, and how the Chinese just turn a blind-eye, for whatever reason. I have seen one "certified" teacher, to stay on topic, so drunk in the classroom that he couldn't stand up..and he survived the term and was the contract was renewed. And as to the bully-in-question here, well, it's the same question. All of this just remains still unfathomable to me.
Again, Eddy-Cool, thanks.
Xiao |
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alter ego
Joined: 24 Mar 2009
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 11:29 am Post subject: |
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Sex predators and animals in Chinese classrooms? I'm sure it happens, but certainly not very often. I've never worked with teachers that were so blatantly out of control. And what do your amusing anecdotes really have to do with properly credentialed teachers, i.e., trained, certified, and licensed education professionals from English-speaking countries?
xiao51, you made some good points here, and I can tell you want the last word, so I'll just respectfully ask you to do a "gap fill" test with the paragraph you wrote. The test requires you to substitute the term "certified" with any other word to describe a particular type of teacher. No matter what word you use, e.g., "British" or "fat" or "old" or "young" or even "non-certified" the result is the same: you cannot by association connect the acts of one bad, angry teacher to one type or group of teachers as a whole.
Also, you make a point that you're far, far, far more educated than teachers who have certifications/credentials from their home countries. What does that mean? Could you be more specific? And even if you have a PhD, or whatever, why not add that word to the gap test? Same skewed result.
Here's the gap fill test:
But truthfully, what I have of seen of some of the "__________" expat teachers in this country makes me...and the students...and the student's parents cringe...one "_________" (aka foreign teacher) would throw desks at the students in fits of rage...
I think I understand what you were trying to do, and my point was just to say it might be best to consider the merits or faults of credentialed teachers on an individual basis, which seems a bit more rational to me. |
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kev7161
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 5880
Location: Suzhou, China
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| But truthfully, what I have of seen of some of the "certified" expat teachers in this country makes me...and the students...and the student's parents cringe...one "certified" (aka foreign teacher) would throw desks at the students in fits of rage...and was not sacked...and the same teacher would throw books at the small children in fits of rage...and break their pencils in front of them, etc., etc. When one Chinese student REFUSED to take an English name, this lout said that the little child's name would be "ass" and proceeded to call him like this until the parents intervened with the local Education Bureau..and it just goes on and on...so please, Robin, yes, I agree with you about the professionalism of the Chinese teachers. |
I guess I'll clear the air here. I advise any and all to take Xiao 51's words with a grain of salt. He is referring to me in his missives. We currently (well, after today, I'm not so sure) work at the same Suzhou school. I will not at present divulge the name of the school (I'm sure he will soon enough - he's not a happy camper these days!), nor the actual name of this poster, nor divulge his previous aliases on this message board, although some have figured those out by now. I could fill page after page here at Dave's with this poster's half-baked truths, his claims of his superiority in all manners teaching and numerous other things, but I won't.
What I will do is address the above quote. Have I gotten angry with students? You bet I have. Have I broken a child's pencil? Yep, after only asking said child to stop writing on his desk FOUR times and pay attention to the lesson. Said child never wrote on his desk again in my company. Maybe desk-writing is okay for Xiao51, but not for me, sorry and so be it. Have I thrown a book AT a child? No, never. Have I slammed a book down on my table in the front of an unruly classroom in order to get their attention? Yes. Have I thrown a desk AT a child? Well, that's just a bit ludicrous don't you think? The answer is . . . no, of course not.
Now, let's address this whole "calling a child ass" thing. But let's get some background first. When I started teaching this school 4 years ago at a first grade level, I had 3 or 4 students in our "American-style" classroom with Chinese names. I, for one, never like "naming" a child like you might do a pet. I was happy to call them by their Chinese names. During the second grade year, two of the girls came in one day and both had decided to go by English names as a majority of the students all had their own English names. I didn't blink an eye; more power to them. It actually took me a while to remember their English names and not call them by their Chinese names. Early in 3rd grade, one Korean boy asked me to pick out an English name for him (he was the last holdover with a native name) while his mother stood by his side nodding in agreement. When I am asked of this, I do it (albeit begrudgingly) and I try to pick out a name that is close to their own native name and then 2 or 3 other choices as well and let the child make the decision. See, young kids often DON'T like to be the odd-man out and want to be part of the crowd. If ANY of my current students came to me and said they wanted to start using their given name again out of a sense of pride or identity or something, I would gladly do so.
When I started this first grade class this year, there were a few students with native names. My Chinese co-teacher (along with most parents) asked me to come up with some ideas for English names. *sigh!* Okay, so I did. However, one boy kept writing his native name on his papers although he had an English name that we had been calling him for a few weeks. I was told his mother wanted him to retain his given name and, at the end of the week, she told me so herself. I told her that's fine but explained the situation I just explained to you above to try and make her understand that, down the line, he may want to revert to an English name. She was adamant so end of story. I changed his name in my grade books back to his Chinese name. Again, it took me about two weeks to remember to call him by his Chinese name regularly as opposed to his given English name ("Sam", by the way, not "Ass"). This kid was, by far, the most clever, on-his-game student in our classroom with a good mastery (for his age) of the English language. I loved having him in my class and just felt he was a huge blessing to have in the midst of a few others that weren't such a "HUGE" blessing, if you know what I mean. Why I would call such a wonderful child "Ass" is beyond me, but there you go.
I don't see the kids much these days save for out in the hallway where they shout gleefully, "Mr. Kevin!" and run to me for a hug. So much for scarring them for life as was said in another post by the same poster. I am now up with the fourth grade class, leaving the 1st grade class to Xiao51 due to a teacher with health issues leaving at mid-year. I am not going to sit here and ream out this poster and call him bad names and accuse him of things that I either know or think I know he does or doesn't do. That wouldn't be classy and I think I am sometimes a kind of classy guy. I'm sure a rebuttal will be forthcoming very soon and that's fine. I won't respond and if anyone feels the need to discuss it further they can certainly PM me or even him about it.
By the way, I had a pleasant chat with "Sam's" (not about to use his real name here!) mother just last week, concerned about some scratches around his eye. She was a little dismayed telling me that he had a run in with a bush or something. I also visited with "B's" mother and she was just as pleasant as a ray of sunshine. Today, I inquired about "S's" health as his father and I had a chat yesterday when he was bringing his son out to see a doctor about blood in his urine. Today he said nothing to worry about, and I hope so - - another sweetheart kid. Father as nice as could be. Again, parents intervening with the local Education Bureau is just a wee bit of an exaggeration. If any of them actually did this, I was never, ever given any indication of it. If things ever progressed to such a degree when it came to my attempts at classroom management and discipline that anyone would actually go to the Bureau, I'm sure I would have heard about it from my superiors.
So, there you go . . . tit for tat. I will no longer respond to Xiao51's posts whether directed at me or even when he is responding to another poster. Disagreeing with him is nigh useless and really, what's the point? This is my side of it. I'm no saintly teacher and I do get angry at misbehaving students or students who don't do their work. I'll never deny that. But I will deny that I throw desks at students and call them "Ass". You all can believe what you want. Besides Xiao51, I don't think anyone here has met me in person or observed any of my classes or lessons. I could be wrong. So you can "pick a side" if you want based solely on what you read here at Dave's or just take it for what it is. Any more stories you'd like to share Xiao51? |
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xiao51
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 1:04 pm Post subject: .... |
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I am so surprised at the general public confession of the poster Kev7161.
I do not even know how I could be directing any of my comments against him or her -- I have never met the person in any way, shape or capacity, I have never worked with such a person in all of my years in China.
I am sorry that he or she took such a long time to write such a long post but then again perhaps he or she felt that his or her conscience or civic duty required it. For my part, I am just clueless as to whom he or she may be.
As I said, previously, I am only commenting on one particular teacher, based on my own observations, the observations and comments of the parents, and the observations and comments of the students. The shoe was not intended for his or her foot, (i.e., Kev7161), however extremely large or exceedingly small it may be, so to speak, but by all means, if the shoe fits, as the saying goes, please wear it or at least try it on if you are so inclined. That, however, was far from my intention.
And BTW, where is Suzhou? |
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kev7161
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 5880
Location: Suzhou, China
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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Well then, my public apologies Xiao51. I guess the email address I have in my hotmail mailbox ([email protected]) is a total coincidence as are the PMs I have from another Xiao51. Mea culpa. Go in peace my child.
(yeah, I know, I promised - - so SUE ME!  ) |
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xiao51
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 10:28 pm Post subject: ... |
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| kev7161 wrote: |
Well then, my public apologies Xiao51. I guess the email address I have in my hotmail mailbox ([email protected]) is a total coincidence as are the PMs I have from another Xiao51. Mea culpa. Go in peace my child.
(yeah, I know, I promised - - so SUE ME! ) |
Your public apologies are, of course, very much accepted and very much in order. I am sure that you bear no relation at all to the teacher with the extreme sociopathic behavior that I witnessed since I don't even know who you are.
Anyway. again, thank you for your public admission of error and again, it was enjoyable reading your confession above. concerning anger in the classroom. |
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Sugar Magnolia
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
Posts: 233
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 3:14 am Post subject: |
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Take it easy boys.
Yunqi |
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