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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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 Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Gulezar,
"Not quite so easy for a woman."
I didn't know that, but it's not exactly a shocker. I mean, what IS?
Regards,
John |
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trapezius
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Land of Culture of Death & Destruction
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| According to the Quran, non-Muslims are not allowed to enter Makkah: "Oh you who believe! Truly the idolaters are unclean; so let them not, after this year, approach the Sacred Mosque..."(9:28.) |
There is a big difference between 'idolaters' and non-Muslims who are considered as "people of the Book" in the Qur'an. That verse you quoted applies to idolaters (and yes, idolaters are considered to be unclean according to Islam, spiritually, that is). However, Christians and Jews are not idolaters. They are referred to as "people of the Book" and are nowhere considered to be 'unclean'.
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One of my biggest regrets in life is being forbidden to visit the Holy Haram, but skirt around its' environs on the "Christian Bypass".
And, this is said with all seriousness. My beef isn't with Islam, but with the way it is given a black eye by how it's practiced in Saudi Arabia. Outside the KSA, we are welcomed...inside, we are shunned. |
You say your beef isn't with Islam, but it is Islam that forbids you from going there. The government here forbids it because Islam forbids it. Yes, there are many other aspects of daily life where what you said would be appropriate, but with regards to this issue, that edict comes directly from the religion itself, and is not some weird Arab/Saudi tradition/law that has just been carried on.
Of course, in 1979 when Saudi forces couldn't defeat a group of rebels who took over the Grand Mosque in Makkah, French commandos were called in for assistance, and according to Wikipedia, they were made into fake Muslims for that purpose:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Mosque_Seizure
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| Lawrence Wright reports that only three Frenchmen were called in, members of the highly trained GIGN counter-terrorism unit. Because non-Muslims are not allowed in the holy city, they converted to Islam in a brief formal ceremony by Saudi religious leaders.[17] Saudi officials deny the French actually entered Mecca. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juhayman_al-Otaibi
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| The Minister of Defence, Prince Sultan, finally called the Pakistani Army to handle the situation. As a Muslim country, Pakistan was eager to offer help. It was General Zia-ul-Haq at that time who directed the Pakistan Army and who finally captured the mosque with the help of French paramilitary forces. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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Dear trapezius.
I'm a little confused. You quoted the Quran to the effect that idolaters are not allowed "to approach the Sacred Mosque."
You then proceed to explain how idolaters are different from "the people of the book."
And then you wrote that Islam forbids NCTBA's going to Makkah.
Is NCTBA an "idolater?" I doubt it, So where in the Quran does it restrict non-Muslims who are also non-idolaters?
Regards,
John |
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SD BOY
Joined: 29 Mar 2009
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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Yes! Of course, Infidels may enter the Holy cities of Mecca and Madina.
The only problem is, that by Koranic law (as interpreted by the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia), your eyes will be gauged out, your tongue will be cut, your flesh will be ...ahh...shall I go on?
I used to live in Taif, and we had to pass through the Christian by-pass on our shopping trips to Jeddah.
I believe Sir Richard Burton was the only one who pulled it off. Excetping, the countless Filippinos etc. who , no doubt, work there. |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| There is a big difference between 'idolaters' and non-Muslims who are considered as "people of the Book" in the Qur'an. That verse you quoted applies to idolaters (and yes, idolaters are considered to be unclean according to Islam, spiritually, that is). However, Christians and Jews are not idolaters. They are referred to as "people of the Book" and are nowhere considered to be 'unclean'. |
Well, in the previous verse in my post, there is no mention that the Christians and Jews are unclean! In addition, it is important to understand the context of the Quranic verses and the situation under which a specific verse was revealed.
"The Saudi government uses the following verse as a Qur�an confirmation for this law; however, there are other interpretations to this verse (in particular, People of the Book would usually not be regarded as pagans):[42]
"O you who believe(in All�h's Oneness and His Messenger Muhammad صلي الله عليه و سلم)! Verily, the Mushrikun(polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of All�h, and in the Message of Muhammad صلي الله عليه و سلم) are Najasun (impure). So let them not come near Al-Masjiadal-Har�m (at Makkah) after this year; and if you fear poverty, All�h will enrich you if He wills, out of His Bounty. Surely, All�h is All-Knowing, All-Wise." -- Qur�an.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca
"The existence of cities closed to non-Muslims and the mystery of the Hajjs aroused intense curiosity in people from around the world. Some have disguised themselves as Muslims and entered the city of Mecca and then the Grand Mosque to experience the Hajj for themselves. The most famous account of a foreigner's journey to Mecca is A Personal Narrative of a Pilgrimage to Mecca and Medina, written by Sir Richard Francis Burton.[43] Burton traveled as a Qadiriyyah Sufi from Afghanistan; his name, as he signed it in Arabic below his frontispiece portrait for The Jew The Gypsy and El Islam was al-Hajj 'Abdullah.[citation needed] Individuals who use fake certificates of Muslim identity to enter may be arrested and prosecuted by Saudi authorities.[44]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca |
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eclectic
Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 1122
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| Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Thank you 007. |
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SD BOY
Joined: 29 Mar 2009
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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OK...well done
Mister Bond. |
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Sheikh Abdullah
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 54
Location: California, USA
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| Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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When you make the Shahadah, whether man or woman, you have to have witnesses present.
Just to clear up fact from fiction  |
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Sheikh Abdullah
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 54
Location: California, USA
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| Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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Instead of just trying to visit the Prophet Muhammad (saw) grave, why not read about him first?
Great book below, from pre-Islamic Arabia to when the revelation came, to when it was complete.
The Sealed Nectar By Saifur Rahman Al-Mubarakpuri
A complete authoritative book on the life of Prophet Muhammad (S) by Sheikh Safi-ur-Rahman al-Mubarkpuri. It was honored by the World Muslim League as first prize winner book. Whoever wants to know the whole life style of the Prophet in detail must read this book. |
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Gulezar
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 483
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 8:19 am Post subject: |
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"Not quite so easy for a woman. She would still need two known witnesses to confirm that she is Muslim before an imam before the Saudi embassy would issue the green booklet to her."
I stand corrected:
"I would assume that anyone would need to have two known witnesses to confirm that he/she is Muslim before an imam before the Saudi embassy would issue the green booklet to him/her."
Perhaps a male Muslim, who had not been born into the faith, can confirm this assumption. |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 10:33 am Post subject: |
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| Gulezar wrote: |
I stand corrected:
"I would assume that anyone would need to have two known witnesses to confirm that he/she is Muslim before an imam before the Saudi embassy would issue the green booklet to him/her."
Perhaps a male Muslim, who had not been born into the faith, can confirm this assumption. |
Well, not necessarily, to become/convert to Islam, the only condition is to pronounce the "Shahada" (the testimony of faith), in private or public. The Saudi Embassy does not issue the green booklet (Iqama)!
The Iqama (green booklet) is issued by the Jawazaat (passport dept inside Saudi Arabia), and it has nothing to do with the embassy. |
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Gulezar
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 483
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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"Shahada" (the testimony of faith), in private or public.
That is what I had always assumed, but others on the thread said that both men and women needed witnesses. In order to have Muslim put on the work visa, I needed an imam and two witnesses. After the work visa came the green iqama.
So, I suppose it is the difference between being Muslim and being accepted as Muslim by Saudi Arabia. |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| When you get a visa it is stipulated on the visa whether you are a Muslim or Non-muslim. The Ministry of the Interior will then issue through your employer a BROWN Iqama for non-Muslims and a GREEN Iqama for Muslims. |
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Never Ceased To Be Amazed
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 3500
Location: Shhh...don't talk to me...I'm playin' dead...
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| Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| scot47 wrote: |
When you get a visa it is stipulated on the visa whether you are a Muslim or Non-muslim. The Ministry of the Interior will then issue through your employer a BROWN Iqama for non-Muslims and a GREEN Iqama for Muslims.
It always humo(u)red me that "green" is a sign of "prosperty"...so...what does "brown" connote...  Um...O.K., you'd hafta be a nuclear physicist to figure THAT ONE out!!!
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NCTBA |
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sheikh radlinrol
Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 1222
Location: Spain
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| Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Never Ceased To Be Amazed wrote: |
| scot47 wrote: |
When you get a visa it is stipulated on the visa whether you are a Muslim or Non-muslim. The Ministry of the Interior will then issue through your employer a BROWN Iqama for non-Muslims and a GREEN Iqama for Muslims.
It always humo(u)red me that "green" is a sign of "prosperty"...so...what does "brown" connote... Um...O.K., you'd hafta be a nuclear physicist to figure THAT ONE out!!!
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NCTBA |
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