Job Discussion Forums

[JamRock]

Thank you all for your input and for what has turned out to be a spirited debate.

I used the term "spirited debate" because I'm appealing to the better nature of the passionate exchanges between Bogey, Marco, and Kowlooner (there are a number of other terms I could have used ). I really appreciate everyone's opinion on the subject of racism in Hong Kong and we must remember that it is just that - an opinion. I encourage intellectual debate and the expression of different viewpoints but I would haste to put an end to personal attacks. While I'm not voting myself in as moderator, I would hate for this thread to be closed because of the increasing tension we can all feel and thereby not allowing anyone else to benefit from a topic like this.

One may say it's chicken while the other may say it's pork but they'll never find out until they eat the meat. I say that to highlight the fact that each person's experience can be different and there's nothing wrong with stating a viewpoint and there's also nothing wrong with trying to persuade someone one way or the other; hence, a debate. Marco, Bogey, and Kowlooner have all tried to help me in their own way and I appreciate them for that but guys... c'mon, no name calling. There's no need for that. We can agree to disagree or continue the conversation and stay on topic. Now to sum up what I've read from you all, Bogey seems to be the only one with the opinion that Hong Kong is an unbearable place for a black person while everyone else suggests that it's quite livable, if you can get over the stares and the occasional ill remark.

RiverMystic, I appreciate your middle-of-the-road opinion and Oxi, I like your frankness and to answer your question... I'd still come if I got the chance and the opportunity is a viable one. I'm looking into Japan as well.

SouthernGirl - your account is actually the first I've read of a favorable black experience in S. Korea. Maybe you could let me know what institution you're speaking of. Just to let you in on a funny story - my brother went to S. Korea for a computer software seminar a couple years ago and he told me that he and his fellow coworkers were walking on the street seeking directions (He was the only black person). He touched a Korean woman on her shoulder to ask for directions. When she turned and saw him, she let out a loud scream and ran across the street. While it may have been for some other reason (can't imagine what), he safely assumed it was because he was the first black person she ever saw combined with whatever ridiculous stories she had heard about black people. While that was onlyone case, I have read of many other accounts of the like. I appreciate the offer of help and I will let you know. I have a Jamaican passport by the way.

Once again, I thank you all for your views and let's continue the conversation.... nicely.

[kowlooner]

[Yes Sir I Can Bogey]

[Marcoregano]

[wangdaning]

I live in mainland China, but I went to HK for my visa once. Yes, my experience is small, but I saw a lot of Africans and Indians. No one was particularly bothered by their existence. Most of the foreigners I saw were not white people, but it wasn't a problem, for me or the native HKers.

Yes, three day experience doesn't tell all. I don't like HK because the can't speak mandarin or english (again my observation). I think that HK could be like white guy living in Oakland, I did it and had no problems with racism.

The question is the employer, so look, see what happens. F the racism crap, it doesn't matter. You are you, that is enough.

[JamRock]

You see, my real worry is this - although I'm aware that my primary goal is to earn and save money for whatever responsiblities I have back home, I'm also a people person (which is why I'm trying to make you guys get along on this thread), and the term "people person" gets a serious blow when you take "people" out of it. Meaning that I would hate to end up in HK to find that my friends and friend space is limited because nobody wants to associate with me. I know this may sound like I'm needy and highly depenedent on social approval but that's not the case. I don't need anyone's approval to live my life and I don't pander to anyone's nuances in order to be accepted. I'm my own man. I just never had to deal with anything like that (at least on this level) before and it makes me a bit uneasy.

Do HKer's mix with expats (especially blacks)? Has anyone ever seen any interracial scenario being played out? I know in Japan it is acceptable, however few and far between, but still acceptable (according to the accounts I've read). I could make more money in HK (on the NET program that is) and if the racism situation is livable, I'd do it, but if not, I don't think the money would cover my misery for 2 years.

Personally, I can mix with any race. I have no reservations in that regard. I just don't want that every time I'm looking for a date that I have to look on the list of 5 expat western girls I know that I would consider and then having to cut that list down to three for the ones that would consider me, and further cut that list down to 1 for the ones without a boyfriend. Now I'm a confident guy but I'm of the opinion that confidence only adds fuel to the fire when you're battling an overtly racist consciousness. Martin Luther King was confident, so was Malcolm X and they both got what they wanted eventually but I don't feel like dying just because I wanna have a drink with the local Lucy Liu.

I don't want you to get the wrong impression that I'm only concerned with the dating scene. I'm very serious about the job I would be doing and I have a strong work ethic. It's just that the job is only one part of me and it's not the only thing I want to think about.

Let me know what you think.

JamRock

[RiverMystic]

All in all, Jamrock, I think you will have your work cut out. But the best people to ask would be other black people who live, or have lived, in HK. Any around?

Anyway, Jamrock, I decided to try to be as objective as possible and when I went out last night in HK I made a point to observe interactions between races. I went to a total of four popular bars, and saw only three black people all night. There were two black guys in the first bar, which had about 100 people there (they were sitting in different groups, with white people). There were about 30 white people, maybe 70 Chinese (didn't spot any Thais, Philippinos etc). I saw no interaction between the HK Chinese and the whites and blacks. I saw one white guy trying to get on with a cute Chinese girl on the dance floor, but she just ignored him.

The other black guy I saw was standing on the steet, again with some white people, and no HK Chinese interacting with them. I just walked past, so can't say much more.

The other bars I went to had no blacks. There were a couple of black doormen on one bar that I went in for a while. Strangely, amongst the 100 or so partiers, there were almost no Chinese people in there (maybe the black bouncers scared them away ). I saw one Chinese guy not far from me, so I went up and said to him jokingly that he was the only Chinese guy there. He laughed, then told me he was from Singapore. We talked for quite a while about the differences between HK and Singapore.

There was no bad vibe or anything, but everything I saw reinforced my perception that HK Chinese don't mix well with foreigners, especially black people. I've had a few locals as friends here, but not as many as I would have expected.

The other factor which suggests a generally negative minsdet towards blacks is that movies with black people as the leading actors are often never released in HK, because they are so poorly attended. There was an article about this in a local paper about a year ago.

[kowlooner]

I think RM has some good observations, at least about the local bar scene. Obviously, your social life will be influenced by how you go about developing it! Hanging out at random bars might not be the best strategy, but I'm sure you know that and I doubt that that is your intention. The friends you develop through work will be your first network, and that will gradually expand, and when it comes to dating, you'll probably do group dates at first (no great revelation there). So much really comes down to your own personality, and you seem like a pretty friendly and sociable guy.

I don't want to imply that it will be easy as pie (if I have come across as glossing over all of HK's faults and implying it's some sort of paradise, then I must apologize), but a lot of it's common sense and the way you decide to approach the situation. Some find it extremely easy to meet and mix, and others find it near impossible. One thing against your favor in HK is that the black population here probably is, relatively, much smaller than in Japan, and so the experience HKers have with blacks is less common. Add to that the fact that most HKers probably associate blacks with the African gentlemen hanging out in Tsim Sha Tsui and looking thoroughly shady, and it's understandable why there might be some apprehension.

In Japan, on the other hand, blacks are encountered perhaps a bit more widely, in bars and clubs (working) and language centers and whatever. The Japan forum would obviously be a better place for confirmation about that! In fact, there's a black guy named "Jero" who a year or so back got extremely popular in Japan, putting out a CD where he sang traditional "enka" music (the kind with tons of vibretto - check it out on youtube!). Basically, lots of positive exposure which would likely have had a positive ripple effect in the larger community in terms of attitudes.

So, I think in some (perhaps many) ways, Japan might be an easier overall experience, quite honestly. But that doesn't mean HK will necessarily be hard or difficult or negative when it comes to developing friendships and having an active social life. I think you've gotten a pretty good picture of what HK could be like from the various posts so far.

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned yet is your job-hunting. You said you've got a BA in Communications and will soon be completing a TEFL program. It looks unlikely that you'd be seriously considered for the government's NET program if that's all you've got. Others out there, correct me if I'm wrong.

Finally, you originally also commented about the financial aspect, saying that "it seems you get more for your money in Hong Kong - apartments, food, some kind of a life, etc." I'm not so sure about the apartment part, though food and entertainment is, on the whole and all things being equal, a better bargain here, unless you don't like Chinese food!

Best of luck!

[Marcoregano]

I agree with most of what RM and Kowlooner have written above. Generally speaking Hongkongers don't mix much with foreigners (of whatever skin colour) - they are probably the most inscrutable and difficult-to-get-to-know people I've ever come across. I'm a fairly sociable person but I don't have any Hong Kong Chinese friends to speak of, and neither do most of my friends.

Still, as I mentioned, there are quite a few black people living on Lamma and at least two of these guys have Chinese girl friends. Also, as I mentioned above, the community on Lamma is very mixed and sociable, though once again I'd say Hongkongers mix less than the rest. Having said that, many westerners have Chinese partners.

A couple of weeks ago we went to an African club in Central, which had a pretty good live band with guys of mixed African origin (I think). Anyway, there were plenty of black people mingling with white and Chinese people there. I suspect that the Hongkongers that mix best are maybe ones who've spent time abroad, or work in international companies, etc.

I agree with Kowlooner that you're a long shot for the NET prog as they generally recruit certified teachers with experience.

[cck3000]

I am a black man here in Korea. I like you was also debating on going to China, Korea, South America, Vietnam. I like you was using this forum as a guide to help in the decision making process. With that being said and with all the negative information I read about blacks in the following countries having a hard time securing employment I set for Vietnam. Vietnam was tough because they have an alarming amount of Nigerians walking doing God knows what and a lot of that negative behaviour gets associated with all black people. I did however after two weeks of soliciting my resume land a job teaching at the Australian American Institute. The situation was kinda shakey so I went back to the states to regroup. Prior to my leaving I had received an offer from a school in Korea, but because of what I read I turned it down initially. When I went back home the recruiter had contacted me and asked if I was still interested. Being out of money and options at that point I decided to take the offer. Needless to say that what I read on the forums was nothing like my actual experience. The only dispute I had was with a taxi driver that ripped me off for $60 (Im still looking for him to kick his ass), but other than that I have not had any problems whatsoever. I live in a small city in the southern most part of Korea and the people here are very inviting, warm, helpful, and genuine. And I am a larger than average man who was considered intimidating to people in America. Bottom line is dont believe half of the crap you read on these forums. There is SOME useful info on this site while the rest of is would be better classified as garbage.

[porcupine]

I helped hire my replacement when I left my Taiwan job to come to HK. I telephone interviewed a number of teachers in the States and found one I really liked. I told my boss about her and the first question she asked was about the colour of her skin. I didn't know because I didn't ask for a photo in the interview process. My boss told me to find out if she was black or not. The teacher wasn't black, so she was hired. The answer I got was it's the parents who don't want to have a black teacher. I have met some white South African teachers who always make a point of stating they are white when they apply for jobs. I also had another Taiwanese cram school boss who told me she would never hire a black person (again because the parents would not like it).

I would still apply in Hong Kong. The EdB looks to be becoming more multi-racial. When I had my interview for my net job, I met an African-American man (who had been working in Japan for a number of years) and an Indian woman and both were hired and accepted at schools because we met again for our training.

Good luck!

[JamRock]

RiverMystic... bravo on your effort in finding sample spaces for me to see what the HK scene is like. I really appreciate you going over and beyond a mere discussion. It was fun reading of your little experiment and I suspect it was fun for you to carry it out.

Marco, I appreciate your observations as well. It seems there are more Africans in HK than African-Americans or Afro-Caribbean. So I'm guessing that Central is a good place to hang my hat with the mixture of all the expats there.

Maybe we should continue to embark on a little competition/experiment where those in this thread would evaluate the HK racial scene (dating, workplace, etc) in the coming week and then report their findings. Interested? RiverMystic is out in front!

I'm not trying to belittle the racism issue by the way. The information is very beneficial.

Kowlooner, I think I agree with your opinion of Japan concerning blacks. As I had said in my original post, the Japanese (of course not all but enough to notice) have a strong reggae following and a love for the Jamaican culture. A Japanese woman even came to Jamaica and won the Reggae Dancehall Queen contest a few years back (beat us at our own game ).

Concerning the NET program, I agree that I'm a long shot and according to their website, I think my qualifications are 4th in line for consideration (behind certified teachers, experience, etc.). However, I've been told by a number of persons that depending on how good a job I do in my cover letter (pm me if you'd like to see it) of convincing them that I would bring a set of "transferable skills" to the program, I could up the ante on my competition. Since my field is Communications, those skills are advertising and public relations. I've been trained on how to generate new and enticing ideas; and how to effectively get my point across to an audience (in this case my students). Makes sense?

The apartment thing is a little tricky in Japan. There are all these ridiculous and unnecessary fees just to move in - 1st and last months rent (expected), deposit (which can be up to 3 months rent in some cases), key money (which is another one to two months rent and is apparently to show "appreciation" to the landlord for allowing you to live there!). On top of that, they want a guarantor. Talk about overkill. If you'd like to avoid all of these fees then your options are really, really small holes in the wall. I haven't come across any such excesses in my findings on the HK market. Am I wrong? With what the NET program gives you for housing (about US$2000 I think) I've come across a lot more spacious and better quality apartments than that of Japan. Opinions?

cck3000, thank you for sharing. It's good that you've had a great experience in S. Korea. Your's is the 2nd favorable black experience I've heard of there (read southerngirl's post). I hope more blacks will have positive accounts in the future. However, your experience in HK may or may not be different since you've never been there (I apologize if I'm wrong about this).

Porcupine, I also heard of such excuses. Shame, especially when you realize that racism is taught and is not an intrinsic human trait. However, bravery isn't taught. You either have it or you don't. Apparently a lot of the staff of these Asian BOE's and language schools don't have it when it comes to confronting parents about their illegitimate fears of black people. Although I don't think they're trying too hard anyway as their first priority is money, not a social crusade.

Looking forward to the findings of whoever takes up the challenge!

[once again]

When I first came to Hong Kong, about 15 years ago now, I was younger, freer, and single...lol At that time, I would say that I socialized with mostly local Hong Kong people. Several of those people are still my good friends. As I have aged and married..my social circles have fallen..lol..but my best friends here are still a mix of local and expat. I have always thought that Hong kong has very little to do with colour, religion or race, but on percieved commonality. Its like people have little ven diagrams in their heads and measure how much common interest there may be. I am most close to local people who have spent time overseas. (Of which there are a lot in Hong Kong)

There is certainly a stereotype here though. I have been in interviews situations where a blonde blue eyed russian lady was given the job over me..for NET jobs. ( I am white, male and a native English speaker) From my experience, it would be difficult to say that there is no prejudice here. There was one job I was in where I was discriminated against because, although being white, my white lineage includes an non native English speaking direct relative. But then the same kinds of thing happened in England too.

I think I have seen no more racism here than I saw in the UK. Indeed, here it is safe to say that a lot of the direct racism that is intimidating on a daily basis, simply doesn't exist here.

I have worked with three black people in my time here. They were great teachers and respected as such by the school and students.
If you want to come to Hong Kong, I would certainly give it a go.

[Marcoregano]

once again, when you first arrived in HK, did you work for a private language school? I only ask because those I know who have done so seem to have more local friends - private language schools seem to be good places to meet HKers. I guess by definition they tend to be close-knit and much of the teaching is small group and one-to-one. On the other hand, those I know on the NET scheme at secondary schools seem to endure a more 'us and them' scenario and have generally made less social contact with the locals.

[once again]

I did work for language schools when I first arrived here, and I agree that may well have played a part in shaping my attitude and opportunities.