|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
JGC458
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 248
Location: Shanghai
|
 Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 11:38 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| evaforsure wrote: |
As a SAFEA contracts provides for no real protection, I prefer to sign a contract designed after a western agreement model�.the amendments (often listed on another sheet) that are not featured in a SAFEA contract will often not be considered by SAFEA, Labor Board or the
Courts. |
evaforsure, what you're saying does go against (what I gather to be) the general opinion re SAFEA contracts on here. But what you're saying and perhaps the way you say it make me want to hear more about the reasons you are saying it. I suppose I'm asking for proof - coz I'm inclined to believe you but so far you are only offering little more than opinion.
As things stand, you seem to be muddying the waters - worryingly so for newbies. You're suggesting, at least implying, that we should accept non-SAFEA contracts as these would afford us greater protection. Would you also suggest insisting on a non-SAFEA contract, even if a SAFEA contract is offered?
My own (current) opinion is that a SAFEA contract and appendix can give an FT protection, depending on which official/s happen to be entrusted with enforcing that protection. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
kev7161
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 5880
Location: Suzhou, China
|
| Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 12:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I've been quite lucky with my contracts so far. If it was in the contract anywhere, then my school has honored it. However, every year I pore over my newest one before I sign it, make notes, request changes, highlight things I don't understand, etc. and then talk with my supervisors about it. Once we've come to an agreement with each point, then I put pen to paper. There are so many things to be wary about and things you want to make sure are covered but, sadly, that first year here will be a learning experience and you may take some lumps, depending on where you end up. If you're only coming for a year, then you've had an experience (good or bad) that you can talk with to your friends and family for years to come. If you are planning more long-term, keep a log of what you have learned concerning contracts and you'll find yourself in a better position the next time. You'll learn how you can bargain and you'll learn on what should or must be covered in a contract. You'll learn about ambiguous clauses and learn how to get more specific in terminology. Good luck! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
|
| Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 1:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| coz I'm inclined to believe you but so far you are only offering little more than opinion. |
Please don�t believe me... it is just an opinion based on my 8 years in china.....instead look for examples that bear out your ideas as to the protections offered and delivered by SAFEA offices (I think it is a bad idea to gleam your sureties from this or any other website that has as a primary source of information, Foreign Teachers, experience is the best guideline�but by the time you have learned �its too late and I guess that is why they call it experience)....you may find you experience in china totally different from mine.. but I have dealt with SAFEA offices and courts in China and my offerings here are based on my own experiences and nothing more.. it is up to every FT to create their own China reality and the successful ones do not subscribe to any government protections through any agencies or industry regulatory office....
| Quote: |
| As things stand, you seem to be muddying the waters - worryingly so for newbie�s. You're suggesting, at least implying, that we should accept non-SAFEA contracts as these would afford us greater protection. Would you also suggest insisting on a non-SAFEA contract, even if a SAFEA contract is offered? |
First, I am not insisting that any contract in china will give you protection.. that is my major point�if it is possible .. it is better to sign with a foreign company that has an operation in China�by franchise or representation.. and that they pay check to bank�you can not bank on any organization in China to fairly represent you in a non court proceedings.. and even in a court proceedings .. a lot depends on the courts interpretation of contract law.. court proceedings have yet to catch up with contract law in China�
Usually one can not request a type of contract...it really depends on factors such as where the HQ of the company is located and what license/deal they have made with the labor department as well as local admin offices and remember provinces in China have a lot of autonomous power ... As Safea is a organization which has members, first to understand their role in government, it has to be ascertained how membership is obtained. Is every school and or training facility obliged to follow guidelines in place...read the SAFEA regs about employers sponsoring dependents and you will see most companies do not follow the guidelines...cause guidelines are suggested and not mandatory procedures in itself�however the local office of the labor board or even other offices involved with the regulations of mills and schools can and often do require some of the guidelines but rarely do they abide by those that are suppose to make it an even playing field for the FT.....however a local entrance and exit office can determine that a SAFEA contract has to be provided when ever a FE is involved�in this case a SAFEA contract is lined out as NA and signed by the FT.. a procedure that satisfies paperwork for the bureaucrat..
How much power or how little power the local SAFEA ofc. has is often determined by an �intangible� and non appointed power base of a local office ..some have the ability to work with the local business community and some do not. .remember the FTs are a small part of the ExPats that come to China with a FE book...
As far as not accepting... I am simply providing a notion that not all teaching jobs have to have a SAFEA contract.. as to location of said employment, well the FTs good at cold calls and self promotion will sort these positions out and are unlikely to tell anyone else to protect their revenue stream. I am also inferring that as a newbie or an oldster....the idea of relying on SAFEA to work out conflicts may not be realized...not to say it cant..I just wouldn�t count on it...as I have said.. I have seen reposts posted but the end results that I have found is if a FT leaves himself exposed by negotiating a lot of addendums instead of a base salary, then sooner or later the add-on get whittled away ... to suggest that SAFEA can do anything more that mediate a dispute is simply just not the results of my experience....as to what I know about the courts.. and again .. there are layers and layers of courts...and I cannot proclaim to understand all.. but I do know that the courts can decide to hear a claim or not.. and they can discount any part of the addendums that they so desire...
| Quote: |
| My own (current) opinion is that a SAFEA contract and appendix can give an FT protection, depending on which official/s happen to be entrusted with enforcing that protection. |
Exactly, but the paper is not as important as the compassion of the official.. and perhaps your friendship as well.....
I am not suggesting that you refused tro sign a SAFEA contract. as they are sometimes the only thing used.. what I suggest is that the FT negotiate everything into a monthly rate..the surest way to avoid SAFEA contract conflicts...and reduces the "abilities" that affects the "instruments" ability...for example ... why negotiate a plane ticket when a small amount each month will eventfully pay for expenses .negotiate pay after taxes so as to avoid the tax scam�or at least check on it at the local tax office to insured it is paid. and remember appliances/internet are perks and perks are easy to take away...another example.. the Chinese see no difference in a structured bonus and a performance bonus and even have different criteria for the completion and payout of these bonus....for example .. you may be denied a bonus simply due to the fact that you didn�t spend enough of your off hours with the students.. when as a employee. you have the understanding that off time is your own...
internet access...what defines this...
western accommodations...this?
The more conditions, the more facets of a broken contract to deal with ....
There are so many more aspects of life in china tht cannot be contracted...my point is why try...just go for the money... it is the same in any situation and is the only true measure of a successful China adventure...and don�t depend on any agency getting you as out of trouble.. try and prevent it before hand by sticking to a simply payment plan that will leave you with no possibility of fraud. or cultural misunderstandings... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JGC458
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 248
Location: Shanghai
|
| Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 6:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Yep, in the midst of such legal inconsistencies I suppose all you (anyone) can do is you pays your money and you takes your choice. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
|
| Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 7:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
| As always a FTs best asset is their 'wit' and not the reliance on a School FAO, foreign or native, regulating gov. body or organizations that in appearance will protect the working foreigner...... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
