Job Discussion Forums

[PyRoT]

All your responses are very informative, and thought provoking.

I appreciate the advice on the masters but it�s something that is very difficult for me to do. I am extremely over uni. The thought of going back to do more is worth avoiding for some extra trouble in the future. I prefer to work on my career through work experience for now. Anyway, since having a masters from a subject that won't aid my teaching may be important, I wouldn't have any qualms about lying in order to get such jobs if absolutely necessary. Looking at some ads, it seems that after 2 years of experience, I could get jobs at unis that involves less than 20 hours per week for 6000rmb which is really good (Two years seems to be the magic number that differentiates short term teachers from serious ones). Additionally, I am not attracted to large cities so requirements should remain reasonable. I would get a CELTA thing done though as I am more interested in teaching more mature students.

If it seems like I am rushing into this it is because it is partly true. Going to China is a bit of a bridge burn as my studies have covered psych, neuropsych and economics. If I go and teach for a year or two, then my career with these will be stunted. I am taking some risks by doing this but I seriously hate my current arrangements. So much so that it is worth the risk. Even if the worst happens and I have to return here one day as a laborer. From what you all say, experience seems to not be so important but it can't be meaningless. I see jobs that claim no degree or experience is required at all so having my degrees, and my experience would probably not make it that tough to get an ok job.

It is a fair call to question my view of Chinese as not so materialistic. I am aware of the work ethic as one of my adult students once dumped a boyfriend who was making a lot of money from a home business, but not actually working much. However, not all Chinese are the same and I am sure I could find someone that wouldn�t be so (traditionally?) unpractical. Also, I prefer to be around one step out of Beijing, away from the city people, so that should improve my chances. When I was in China though, most of my friends thought I was lucky so it can�t be so bad.

Having said all that, I haven�t ruled out Korea or Taiwan as alternatives to China. I simply prefer China because I was there and liked it though getting visas and even PR in Korea is much easier.

[Tainan]

Hi again,

I actually agree with a lot of what you've said and I feel the same way about work, life in the "west" (If the U.S. and Aus. are both the West, where is the East?) and life in China. I absolutely think that going to China right now is the right thing for you. I just think you should defer thinking about these big questions until you've already been there for a while. I definitely agree with the advice about not burning bridges. I was not planning to return to the U.S. ever, or at least in many years, and then a medical emergency forced me to. I was terrified of not being able to find work here but fortunately my old job was able to take me back. Believe me, however much you may want to shake the dust from your sandals, burn your bridges, and go, it is worth while to make sure you don't do that--be on friendly terms with a few people who might be able to help you if you ever do "go back home".

As for the Master's, it may or may not be worth it. When I was accepted to a good Chinese university, I was given the highest salary someone with only a B.A. could make--3,300 a month. People with less experience than I were making around 2,700. Someone with a Master's could make up to 4,500 I think. The beginning of my second year I was given 3,600 a month. Had I stayed for a third year I would have been given 3,900. Whether raises in increments of 300 a month per year would have gone on and on, I do not know. Presumably someone with a Master's would also have been getting small increases on the original 4,500. But I never said you should get a Master's right now. First go to China, work for a year etc. Then if you want to stay and if you figure out that the Master's would be economically worthwhile, you can either go back for one or get one online as one of my colleagues did. But again, this too is something you can think about after you've made some more serious decisions. I'm about to apply for a Masters at 35, so it's never too late.

I was a little unhappy, however, to read:

[brsmith15]

As for your returning here, Thomas Wolfe said, "You can't go home again." Watch out for projecting your last stint into the future.

Also, and I'll mirror the others here, the lawyers have a phrase: "form over substance." My adage is to beware "process over purpose."

It looks like you're guilty of that indiscretion. Saying in China forever is form, but where's the substance? What's your purpose? Is it clear in your mind?

I've been here 10 years and will probably die here. It was not my initial intention, but "J'y suis. J'y reste."

[PyRoT]

Hello again,

While I would lie about having a Masters, I doubt it wouldn't really come to that. I don't plan on writing I have one if / when I do go and apply to some unis. I tend to think in extremes sometimes so with that, I'd only lie if I was really backed into a corner. Anyway, getting a real masters at a more mature age (I'm 24 at the moment) is actaully a good idea. I think I always try to cram too much into the near term in order to 'invest' for the long-term. For now, just going with what I have for a year or two is most efficient.

With South Korea (I just spent 10 days there) and Taiwan, they are just possibilities that exist in place of China. South Korea seemed like a great place for a while but I have been hearing that the workload there can be quite tough. The strong materialism was also a turn-off. My friend even told me that plastic surgery is a bit of trend among the young girls. Quite a difference from some Chinese girls who were even averse to earrings! I wonder if these are issues in smaller town less than an hour away from Seoul as if they are not, then perhaps I could give Korea or Taiwan a 6 month trial.

I am glad you understand my issues with life in the west though. Coming from economics, I feel it�s a failure of society that after doubling and perhaps tripling productivity over the last few decades, work still takes the same amount of time out of our lives. I miss the community feeling too. I had a place to live but the whole area outside felt like an extension of it.

Thanks for the grammar lesson too It�d be useful to read a book on such rules before I went as it�s too easy to explain it as �just the way it is�.

[eddy-cool]

PyRot:

You seem to have an interesting academic background but I wonder where all your enthusiasm has evaporated? Surely a psychologically-trained person cannot possibly be so averse to studying a new field?

I am a little uncomfortable reading all these money-driven arguments in favour of a master's based on the rationale that holders of such papers are worth more on the job market.

Have you never thought of the concept of lifelong education? Of learning in order to broaden your horizon rather than just your narrow specialist knowledge?

The recent massacre among bankers and similar types has shown that highly-paid people with unusual specialisations are the first to become dispensable when the chips are down...

[eddy-cool]

PyRot:

You seem to have an interesting academic background but I wonder where all your enthusiasm has evaporated? Surely a psychologically-trained person cannot possibly be so averse to studying a new field?

I am a little uncomfortable reading all these money-driven arguments in favour of a master's based on the rationale that holders of such papers are worth more on the job market.

Have you never thought of the concept of lifelong education? Of learning in order to broaden your horizon rather than just your narrow specialist knowledge?

The recent massacre among bankers and similar types has shown that highly-paid people with unusual specialisations are the first to become dispensable when the chips are down...

[Tainan]

The only reason I even started talking about a Master's here is that PyRoT was talking about staying in China permanently and raising a family. Under those conditions having a Master's could help increase his salary and possibly open further doors down the line. I do not think the Master's is worth it for short-term gain; a few RMB more a month do not repay a year or two of work. Of course learning is in itself a good thing, but not for everyone. One of the problems with our society today is that all sorts of people are being pushed into higher education who don't necessarily want to be there, just because of job requirements. It's bad for them, it's bad for the universities, and it's bad for our society. Universities should be filled with people who want to be there.

PyRoT, I understand you a lot. I remember doing a lot of hyperventilating when I was about 24--I would never be able to find a job I liked, I would be miserable all my life, I just wanted to get away from it all. I think our education system, while generous, is also a little misleading. We're given our first twenty-one years, if we're from a relatively middle-class background, to do little more than read and study and have fun--miniature gentleman of liesure--and then suddenly, with no preperation, we're thrust into a pretty absurd work world.

Maybe if you spend a year or two at a relatively low-key job in China you'll figure out that you want to go back to school and become a neuroscientist; maybe you'll figure out you want to spend the rest of his life in China after all; who knows? In the meantime, just go, enjoy the next year or two, and plot your next step at liesure. By the way, I obviously do not agree that you'd be burning your bridges by taking a year or two off. Many people change career midstream or enter a career late and they hardly find the doors closed to them. Of course, if you were to spend twenty years in the land of the lotus eaters and then decide you wanted to become a top economist, that might be another story. Have you read the Magic Mountain?

Work still takes the same amount of our time for sociological reasons. We don't have the imagination to figure out other things of doing with our lives. We haven't gotten "scientific-management" thinking out of our system. Recently I've heard a few people say that when they're on vacation for more than two weeks they become bored and don't know what to do with themselves. What is wrong with these people? An educated person should have plenty of resources for using his time. It's called otium *beep* dignitate.

I also agree with you about Korea. I like the place but the level of stress is unbelievable, the plastic surgery craze says a lot, and the load of unnecessary work would be a deal-breaker for me if I were thinking of going back there. My school actually had us write a student progress report for every single one of our students, every single week. These were small children. What were we going to write--"your child has been a brat as usual?" The first part of the report was a summary of what we'd done in class during that week, so we started out by writing one, photocopying it, and then on each one writing the student-specific information in the second half. But no, this was rude to the parents, so if there were six students in a class, we had to write out the class information six seperate times. We were well-paid but I don't remember having much time to enjoy it.

Yes, anyone proposing to teach the language would do well to brush up on the grammar--unfortunately our schools simply do not give us proper grammatical training any more.

[PyRoT]

Eddy-cool: The reason for the money based talk is that I am already comfortable with the lifestyle, culture etc. in China. That is all good for me (as far as I know). Money is the only thing I am not yet certain about and it is necessary for, as Tainan mentioned, staying permanently and having a family down the track.

Regarding my education, I didn�t study so much because I enjoyed it. Don�t get me wrong. I love learning and I spent a significant amount of my time reading various things. Put me in a university setting though, with the assignments, exams and basically, forced learning, and I rarely thrive. I spent so much time because I wanted to ensure myself a good job. I felt things weren�t going well enough after the Honors so I went and did some Economics. I am in a very boring job now but even if I really enjoy a week here and there, there is simply not enough time left over after work for my liking. Plus, there is this perverse trend where the higher up one climbs in a career, the more work hours need to be put in.

Tainan: I'm glad you understand me. With work time, I believe it�s just competition that has led to things staying the same. Without regulation, simple game theory can show that hours will never decrease. It was a very controversial time when new regulations were adopted to let us have two days free every week. There was panic about boredom, crime and a disintegration of morality. I think that by having to work so much we forget how to use our free time and fail to develop hobbies and interests that can occupy it when we are finally given a break. So if one gets more free time and is bored, it�s not a failure of the system but of themselves. I feel that I have many interests that can occupy me and if I do get bored I can take up more work or do some volunteering. However, the important thing for me is that this extra work is a choice and not an obligation.

By the way, I haven't read Magic Mountain though I shall see if it is held by my local library. I'm curious if you have read 'On the shortness of life' by Seneca. He claims that the perception of life being short is false. The problem is that we go out of our way to use our time for things other than ourselves. It�s a short and good read.

[menso35]

I am probably going to get flamed to hell for this but here is a thought.......Since none of us ever have any hope of ever attaining some kind of permanent status in China, why don't our home countries reciprocate and make it the same for Chinese immigrants? Why, that would be racism of course! All the BS we experience in Asia (Korea being the worst) is not racial discrimination but rather cultural differences that we couldn't possibly understand. After all, as one Korean student pointed out to me, only whites can be racist.

Sorry for the rant, but being from California I see illegal aliens coming here and getting all kinds of social welfare then go on to fly their countries' flags demanding instant citizenship while burning American flags. Imagine if we did the same thing in China or Mexico?

[serbie]

Hi PyRoT,

I too am from Australia and am considering making a move back to teaching in China. Having taught in Beijing for a year ending just prior to the Olympics, I really enjoyed the whole experience, the people and students were great.

Since coming back the travel bug has been hard to resist and I am looking forward to heading back overseas again. Not really much interested in the materialistic and debt-driven binges that most people I know here in aus seem happy and content with. Money isn't really an issue as I feel far better about doing something that I enjoy and is personally rewarding for myself.

Wouldn't mind exchanging info and such in regards to teaching in China. You're welcome to hit me up by email - [email protected]

[eddy-cool]

[PyRoT]

[Tainan]

So any news? Have you burnt bridges and moved to China permanently---or gotten any closer to doing so?