Job Discussion Forums

nickpellatt · Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 1522

I was going to PM a few of our more prominent board members for assistance in this query ... but thought its better posted openly as it may help someone else. It is often said that real grammatical knowledge, and the learning curve of grammar and how to teach it, comes 'on the job'. On this basis I am looking for help from those of you who train EFL teachers, or who work with very newly qualified teachers.

I completed my Trinity course last September ... and have been working in EFL for a fair portion of the time since then. I dont feel I have had the chance to start learning 'on the job' grammar though, because the organisation I work for provide no teaching materials at all, no guidance, monitoring or feedback, and no resources at all.

Bearing that in mind, my professional development is somewhat lacking, as is my knowledge in some key areas of language teaching.

Your average newbie teacher may have a course book to follow, and a teachers book to accompany this with step by step instructions. 'Start by showing a photo of a beach and elicit some statements about going on holiday' etcetc. They may have a senior staff member or DOS who will go through lesson planning stages. They may also have a senior colleague who will observe their lesson, and provide feedback and advice helping the new teacher on that learning curve.

In these cases, those oft recommended grammar reference books can serve to back up the information and program the teacher is following in either the course book, or under the guidance and instruction of other staff. But what would you recommend (if anything) for the newbie who doesnt have these tools and helpers on hand??

Is there such a book or single resource you can suggest for me? A grammar reference book is too cold and doesnt do the job I need without the other tools surrounding it.

For example, lets say you task me to teach third conditionals tomorrow. I have 14 teenage students, and a 90 minute class slot to fill. (thats a typical class for me). I have a very basic knowledge of conditionals ... but probably cant explain them really.

Is there a book for teachers that would do the following -

1) explain the function
2) explain the form
3) give suggested contexts for use in classroom
4) give marker sentences and sample questions to elicit markers.
5) give concept checking questions
6) give tasks and exercises based around target language and structures
7) illustrate typical learner problems and likely difficulties.

I guess what I am looking for is a 'teachers coursebook' but rather than being one that accompanies a set course book such as headway etc.... a generic one that doesnt cover a course syllabus, but instead covers 50 most common lesson plans and grammar points. (or similar). Does such a thing exist????

(if it doesnt ... someone should write one) I have had grammar reference books ... and they do help when you are using them to reference a language point as suggested in the DOS lesson plan or teachers guide in Headway ... but when you dont have those things ... a reference book makes a good door stop and thats about it Laughing

The problem I have is I worry that at some stage I may / will apply to the type of school where I may be asked to take IELTS classes or similar .. and with my qualifications, EFL references, and experience I may appear an acceptable candidate ... the reality is my ability isnt really any better (in some areas of teaching) that the newest of the newbies .... and obviously Im not happy about that. Dignity and pride did mean I wanted to restrict this to PMs...but by the same token ... Im sure Im not the only person in this situation (Please tell me Im not) and if it can serve to help someone else then Im prepared to look less able than I am....

ang_nic · Joined: 02 Jun 2009 Posts: 12

I know you stated your opinions of most grammar books, but bear with me as I explain my reasoning for the following books choices:

1) Explaining English Grammar by George Yule

find it here: http://www.amazon.com/Explaining-English-Handbooks-Language-Teachers/dp/0194371727/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1244566864&sr=1-1

I first came in contact with this text in a university course entitled "problems of english grammar" and I believe it is one of the most indispensable grammar "reference" texts out there. It's easy to read, choke full of clear examples as well as ways to incorporate the topic into the actual classroom. It is really well put-together book that I would recommend to anyone - and one that I have actually gone back to after the course was completed.

2) How to Teach Grammar by Scott Thornbury

find it here: http://www.amazon.com/How-Teach-Grammar/dp/0582339324/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1244567126&sr=8-1

This was the other text used in the course, which I found to be equally useful and it seems that it fits the requirements of the sort of text you are looking for. Sadly, I let this one out of my hands so I do not have any recent experience with it, but from what I can recall it was a very practical and straightforward text.

Hope this helps! Good luck in all your future endeavors!

nickpellatt · Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 1522

thanks for replying ... the second one looks quite interesting to me. I also found this http://www.amazon.co.uk/Teaching-Tenses-Presenting-Practising-English/dp/0952280868/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1244580101&sr=1-8 Which I have come across recently as I borrowed it from another teacher.

How Id love to have �100 kicking around to buy a few of these!

Glenski · Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 12844 Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

nick,
No offense, but what did Trinity say about all this when you got certified? They should have provided answers easily enough.

Even so, I don't think you're going to find a single (or even couple) book that will help you 100% in this matter. Look at the one you just considered; it only deals with tenses!

Trinity should have provided you with some sound theory and practice to get used to the feel of a classroom. You've already experienced some real lessons, so you should have an inkling of where the gaps are.

Spend the money on Practical English Usage (Swan).
Get samples of some books from publishers, but otherwise, you're just going to have to learn on your own, find a trainer, or buy more books. Publishers don't usually offer samples of the reference texts, though.

fluffyhamster · Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:20 am Post subject:

I hate to have to tell you this Nick, but it's probably ultimately a case of "all or nothing" when it comes to good books, that will tick all the boxes on your list (whilst as Glenski says covering more than just tenses or the verb system). I'm not sure it'll be quite the right sort of book for you (and you've expressed more interest in the Thornbury), but I'll second the suggestion of the Yule, though The Grammar Book is more comprehensive whilst not quite twice the price. But these two books are probably still not going to be quite your cup of tea, I fear, so you could do worse than (i.e. it might be best for you to) simply sit down (again, as Glenski suggests) with a coursebook or two that you like the look of, and looking up grammar only when absolutely necessary in suposedly quick reference books like Swan, or Leech's A-Z (but again, I really feel you can't beat the COBUILD English Grammar, because it lets the language speak for itself as much as possible, and is hardly short of examples - see the third para of the following post: http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?p=754883#754883 ). And HEY, let's not forget the ever-popular and oft-recommended Murphy 'Grammar in Use' series of grammar exercise books! You could do worse than get the Basic (US)/Essential (UK) one and start working through it - loads of good, useful sentences and contexts!

Glenski · Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 12844 Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

I have not seen the first book hamster recommended, but as for Murphy, I don't think it is what nick is looking for. It seems that nick wants a blow by blow (almost moment by moment) description of how to plan and present each lesson. (Is that right?) Murphy just offers information and exercises, not how to pre-teach or present them.

nickpellatt · Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 1522

Glenski - I think the one thing that my course tutors mentioned often, was that grammar is really learnt on the job. This is often mentioned here also. They also stated a number of times, about the importance of joining a school / college that offered support and professional development for the new teacher. The kind of place where formal planning is a pre-requisite, where classes are monitored, and work takes place in a challenging, professional, and yet supportive environment.

These types of people are often slated on the boards ... certainly on the China forums, the big chain schools that provide all of the above are often talked about as the worse places to go.

Anyway ... I dont work in the environment mentioned, and so I dont get the benefit of the learning curve and support that many newbie teachers have. I also dont have any course books or material, EVERYTHING I USE IS SELF GENERATED.

Of course, Im sure the answer may be, 'find another employer!', but despite the things my current employer doesnt offer, they are very reliable in terms of payment, organisation, salary and they fit in very well around my own study schedule.

It does sound like I want a 'teaching for dummies' guide ... LOL, it doesnt have to be quite the blow by blow guide ... but a teachers book combined with a course book does tend to cover all the questions I have mentioned in my original post. Perhaps my situation is fairly unique? Whilst lots of people do work in EFL in similar roles to me without support, maybe not everyone is so concerned about continuing to develop as a teacher. I have friends who I have worked alongside in environments that are conversation classes, and others that work exclusively in kindergarten ... they arent concerned, but I dont want that type of work to be all I do.

As Fluffy already know ... Laughing

I dont rate Swan at all ... I recently 'ebayed' my copy as it wasnt of any use. A controversial statement and one that is sure to be challenged! Ill stand by that statement though .... on my Trinity course a number of us had purchased Swan as suggested on the pre course list. We all felt it was too heavy and too advanced for us, and I have also spoken at length with some newbies from Daves who tend to think the same.

If you have a student in class who is struggling to learn something, giving them Swan isnt likely to be any good as the language and topics arent graded to their ability...ditto for the new teacher ... We also need to learn from contexts, markers etc ... the advantage is we already know the language of course. Those grammar reference books serve to back up the information and contexts introduced in course books, and discussed with peers and the DOS .... but without the contexts ... the books reference ... well, nothing. (for me and many of the other newbies I have discussed this with). Just as a dictionary must define words with a level of vocabulary graded below the target word .... a grammar book needs to do the same.

It would be interesting to hear from teacher trainers .... certainly on my course, students turned up with their grammar reference books and had tried to complete pre-course tasks ... and yet almost all of us knew nothing regarding grammar .... And I believe this is because all the books recommended are not graded for newbies, and are not fit for this purpose. I dont have course books I can cross - reference.

By the sounds of things .... the book or guide I want doesnt exist? I think the answer is to keep checking ebay for such things ... teachers books / course books etc

fluffyhamster · Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:30 pm Post subject:

I threw in a "reference" tome (the Murphy, Glenski:) because I don't think it actually takes that much (Nick!) to extrapolate from forms to functions and thus to lesson planning, especially when the presentation of the forms is reasonably well-organized (and similar to most textbooks), and the forms/examples themselves generally well-chosen/contextualized and therefore useful. Anyway, the point is that such a book wouldn't be too much of a stretch to use/plunder, and I did recommend three other books (but it would be a waste for Nick to buy them if all he did was skip to their 'Teaching/activity suggestions' sections).

Hey, I've just remembered Penny Ur's Grammar Practice Activities. Lord help us! (Comparng this book with stuff like Yule etc is like comparing apples with oranges, or the lengths of pens - 'This pen is longer than that one', which is the sort of dross that Ur suggests. All well and fine I suppose as a basis, and the enterprising teacher is doubtless supposed to go beyond such examples pronto and relate the grammar to the real present world and more authentic examples/patterns of discourse more, but the fact is that this is a pretty much a whole book of stuff that I wouldn't use in its suggested form, and a truly enterprising teacher will have developed better stuff already anyway).
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Yzx5sJIb49oC&printsec=frontcover

Anyway, crap employers don't care, and so-called good employers ultimately just exercise the power of veto over any creativity (why should they deign to wholeheartedly approve anything you've been developing - "If it ain't broke, why fix it, you're re-inventing wheels for this boat you're rocking"), simply directing you back to approved textbooks like Headway (urgh) and drawers full of photocopies of the likes of Ur (talking about a job I turned down due to an obvious veto-clause in it, from DOss who wanted to not be distracted from their tea-making for one second - "Whaddya mean you don't think much of the book or materials?! Like you could do better!" "Er, you seemed to think so at the time of the interview, because you chose to offer me a job on the basis of my answers to how I would teach this and that").

ELT actually makes it quite hard to help oneself, and this after failing to really adequately educate on so-called intensive courses. (Not having a go at you Nick, just giving my long-held opinion of CELTAs, CTEFLs, CTESOLs etc). People should be dragged kicking and screaming through the likes of at least a Murphy, in conjunction with a textbook or two (to see how the grammar can and has been contextualized by author A using texts or contexts B, C and D), and let's not forget a decent dictionary, even if that would take months plural rather than a single month. And it needn't be a terminological swamp, but more just coming up with ideas for activities to cut through the padding and select and organize what appears to be the more useful of the data. But let's not forget that some areas of the language/grammar can be pretty tricky - this, for example: http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=72561 .

nickpellatt · Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 1522

As Im trying to avoid studying ... I have been browsing ebay this afternoon...I have found a seller who appears to have a number of Headway books with both student and teacher copies at what appears to be reasonable prices.

I have just emailed the seller to see if they can match up a few sets for me ... student book / teachers book, and I reckon these sets combined will probably be the type of thing I need. They should provide contexts and exercises to illustrate grammatical items, which allows me to comprehend and understand them in the way a language learner does. Context is key really. The other great thing is a few books should give me the tools to create more material to use in class, and then increase my own understanding and development too!

I do really like my current employer and job ... but it is quite a big ask to prepare material. It may be hard to believe, but Im not a total muppet Embarassed

I just need a certain type of resource to work with, to develop my own skills and deliver certain types of lessons. I do a lot of student centred stuff, a lot of conversational activities, and skills (reading / listening) lessons ... I just need something to work with to pack my courses with some more grammatical and language awareness type content. I might start another thread soon seeing how you guys would structure an entire course program which is what I pretty much have to do with my student groups! It is only a short course mostly ... but preparing material for 11 x 90 minute lessons without these resources can be tough

fluffyhamster · Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:13 pm Post subject:

Heh, I just mentioned Headway, Nick. I was expected to use the Advanced book once, but the suggestions (lead-in questions etc) in the Teachers Manual struck me as patronizing drivel. (I know it gets difficult to know what to teach students who already "know a bit", but come on!). And I recall avoiding the lower-level books too, earlier in my career, if for no other reason than they too seemed a bit too extended (looong) text-heavy (but I would assume that they also were/still are short on underlying substance, top-notch selectional criteria etc).