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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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 Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| all I can say is you set your own limitations...if it was me.. and I was unhappy as to a pre arranged agreement which left me in a position that wasn�t equally compensated as my co workers....I would want to even the paying field... |
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JGC458
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 248
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| evaforsure wrote: |
| all I can say is you set your own limitations |
Agreed, in many ways we all do. But often there is a part of the reality out there that is likely to give us more problems than benefits if we try to change it. So yes, by all means we can (even should) attempt to to renegotiate terms (if we're not happy with them). But we should also all be aware that action of attempting to renegotiate can mean losing the opportunity to work at the school in question. This can often mean that the school is just plain exploitative -especially if the contract is. But it can also mean that the school could be ok and is simply demonstrating that it knows just how much/little pay and benefits it can get away with - especially if the contract is pretty normal.
| evaforsure wrote: |
| ...if it was me.. and I was unhappy as to a pre arranged agreement which left me in a position that wasn�t equally compensated as my co workers....I would want to even the paying field... |
Again, I would feel unhappy and might well try to renegotiate. But it's also true that once a contract is signed it should be honoured (by both parties). Also, I'm not sure it's fair to expect to be able to renegotiate a Chinese signed contract when we probably wouldn't expect to be able to renegotiate a signed contract back home. And anyway, back home don't employees sometimes/often get paid at different rates. If the West can do it why can't China?!
So what I'm saying is that I think we should TRY to get what we each think is reasonable for us in each particular situation. But we should also be aware that some/many(?) schools won't renegotiate, and the fact that an FT tries to renegotiate may result in him/her never working for that school. |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| This can often mean that the school is just plain exploitative -especially if the contract is. But it can also mean that the school could be ok and is simply demonstrating that it knows just how much/little pay and benefits it can get away with - especially if the contract is pretty normal. |
All I have done is offer that if you think your level is not up to snuff with what the school is paying another FT..who for all intents and purpose is the same, then by all means renegociate...only have two choices .. accept it or not...it is up to the FT to decide if he wants to have fair renumiration for the same work as his co workers...
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| But it can also mean that the school could be ok and is simply demonstrating that it knows just how much/little pay and benefits it can get away with - especially if the contract is pretty normal. |
If they are treating all equally, then this doesn�t come into play...we are postin bout un equal pay levels...and what course of action to take if you feel that the pay divisions are unfair...
| Quote: |
So what I'm saying is that I think we should TRY to get what we each think is reasonable for us in each particular situation. But we should also be aware that some/many(?) schools won't renegotiate, and the fact that an FT tries to renegotiate may result in him/her never working for that school. |
You talk as if working for a school that has different pay for individual teachers and the pay scale isn�t based on criteria that are available to all who are employed..... Is some kind of privilege ..likely if a FT is unhappy due to the fact that there is an unequal representation of the quality and experience of the staff through pay vouchers that are based on some unknown scale of negotiations, they will seek equality in pay over continued employment..(and if you need the job so bad that you couldnt chance it..then just keep quit and resent the system). I cannot agree that FTs should lay down and take cronyism and unfair business tactics just to appease a business, �and I cant imagine anyone who would ..except for that business�career goals, no matter how temp and how short have to be based on a solid foundation of work criteria and the representation of a path to employee enumeration that is clear and fair�.other wise.. the FT is just settin himself up for a rip off�
If a woman was paid less then a counterpart that was male.. they were equal on all levels .. then what would your advice be..
Last edited by evaforsure on Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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The Ever-changing Cleric
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 1523
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| evaforsure wrote: |
| all I can say is you set your own limitations...if it was me.. and I was unhappy as to a pre arranged agreement which left me in a position that wasn�t equally compensated as my co workers....I would want to even the paying field... |
Thats why I requested my school raise my salary to the same level as a colleague who was less qualified than I was. If you can make a good case for yourself, it can work. |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| there u go..... |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:50 am Post subject: |
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sorry...
Last edited by evaforsure on Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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The Ever-changing Cleric
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 1523
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| JGC458 wrote: |
| evaforsure wrote: |
| all I can say is you set your own limitations |
Agreed, in many ways we all do. But often there is a part of the reality out there that is likely to give us more problems than benefits if we try to change it. So yes, by all means we can (even should) attempt to to renegotiate terms (if we're not happy with them). But we should also all be aware that action of attempting to renegotiate can mean losing the opportunity to work at the school in question. This can often mean that the school is just plain exploitative -especially if the contract is. But it can also mean that the school could be ok and is simply demonstrating that it knows just how much/little pay and benefits it can get away with |
If this is the case, if the school is exploiting someone, or just paying as little as possible to whoever comes along, then is this the kind of place anyone would want to be working at? If I was working at such a place I'd have no problem renegotiating because I know I have nothing to lose as I wouldnt be staying at the place past the first contract.
| JGC458 wrote: |
| evaforsure wrote: |
| if it was me.. and I was unhappy as to a pre arranged agreement which left me in a position that wasn�t equally compensated as my co workers....I would want to even the paying field... |
Again, I would feel unhappy and might well try to renegotiate. But it's also true that once a contract is signed it should be honoured (by both parties). Also, I'm not sure it's fair to expect to be able to renegotiate a Chinese signed contract when we probably wouldn't expect to be able to renegotiate a signed contract back home. And anyway, back home don't employees sometimes/often get paid at different rates. If the West can do it why can't China?! |
In "the West" most jobs have a pay scale range thats already set down. Have you ever read a job ad in the local unemployment office? I never once applied for a job back home that didnt have a range of pay available that was dependent on experience and qualification. Just looking at the ad you could tell how much you might get, based on what you know about yourself. The ony exception I can think of are the minimum wage jobs in restaurants (a few of which I also had) which almost always pay rock bottom.
Even a lot of the Korean ESL job ads on this website put down a range of pay available depending on quals. Here's one, took me 10 seconds to find it:
Korea 1.8-2.3 million depending on experience
I've never seen an ad like this in China. They just state the salary available and to get anything higher, thats up to your negotiating skills.
| JGC458 wrote: |
| So what I'm saying is that I think we should TRY to get what we each think is reasonable for us in each particular situation. But we should also be aware that some/many(?) schools won't renegotiate, and the fact that an FT tries to renegotiate may result in him/her never working for that school. |
again, who'd want to work at a place with that attitude anyway?
one of the things I like about the place I work is that they've made (human resources related to FTs) improvements over the time I've been here, and it doesnt go unnoticed. When a school demonstrates this type of behaviour, then the employees (should) want to return the favour, improving the quality of work and thereby improving the atmosphere of the workplace in general. Call it a sense of loyalty, which good employees and good employers should have towards one another. |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:14 am Post subject: |
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| If this is the case, if the school is exploiting someone, or just paying as little as possible to whoever comes along, then is this the kind of place anyone would want to be working at? |
The reality is most find themselves in this position, have no idea when making a good faith promise to accept a contract once the FTs feet hit the mainland...and a contract signed over the internet is not really binding ... renegotiation at anytime the situations change is a proper form of business maneuvering and is being used by multi nationals to insure their survival into a future business community...as JGC has said.. u may not be a winner in these negotiations.. but if the school wont budge ..it is unlikely they will fire you for requesting the renegotiation of the present contract and the worst that usually happens is they say no.. and then the FT just cuts back on his performance to make up for the short fall...all goes on as a days work in China... |
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The Ever-changing Cleric
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 1523
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:35 am Post subject: |
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| evaforsure wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If this is the case, if the school is exploiting someone, or just paying as little as possible to whoever comes along, then is this the kind of place anyone would want to be working at? |
The reality is most find themselves in this position, have no idea when making a good faith promise to accept a contract once the FTs feet hit the mainland.......and then the FT just cuts back on his performance to make up for the short fall...all goes on as a days work in China... |
I worked for one school that had terrible management skills. I left as soon as they (finally) paid me. Even the students notice when a school can't keep a FT around longer than one term, esp. if the person happened to be good at their job. If these places are happy with the revolving door of FTs thats up to them. it wont do anything to help their reputation, but then again many of them probably dont care anyway.
I disagree that most people find themselves in this position (being exploited). What can we base these observations on? the people who post on this forum? there must be 10,000 FT in this country (a wild guess) but how many post info on sites like this to make a case about poor treatment? this site is probably the most popular/well-known and even here the number of active posters at any given time is pretty low (~100?) |
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JGC458
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 248
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:46 am Post subject: |
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Ummm?...sorry about interrupting you two...you seem to have a cosy little chat going on here, but just a quick interjection...
| The Ever-changing Cleric wrote: |
If this is the case, if the school is exploiting someone, or just paying as little as possible to whoever comes along, then is this the kind of place anyone would want to be working at? If I was working at such a place I'd have no problem renegotiating because I know I have nothing to lose as I wouldnt be staying at the place past the first contract
1.8-2.3 million depending on experience...again, who'd want to work at a place with that attitude anyway?. |
I AM working at a place that refused and refuses to renegotiate! And I choose to stay here coz the school's name looks good on a CV, the benefits are ok/good, the conditions are ok, and the majority of the students are good. I have a BA so they pay me a certain amount. If I had a Masters they'd pay me a bit more or a Phd another (little) bit more. But they won't even consider upping the salary due to experience or skills. Why is this so hard to understand? And why is it so hard to understand that I put other considerations above immediate monetary gain???
Yes, I'd prefer it if the school increased my salary, but it is actually an average/ok salary and taking into consideration the other positive factors I decided to sign the contract.
| The Ever-changing Cleric wrote: |
| In "the West" most jobs have a pay scale range thats already set down. Have you ever read a job ad in the local unemployment office? I never once applied for a job back home that didnt have a range of pay available that was dependent on experience and qualification. Just looking at the ad you could tell how much you might get, based on what you know about yourself. The ony exception I can think of are the minimum wage jobs in restaurants (a few of which I also had) which almost always pay rock bottom. |
But once an individual is working at an organisation, their salary can be affected by a number of factors that can increase or decrease what they are actually paid.
You speak as if FTs are all the same, when we all know there are better and much worse FTs around. Why should the school assume that all FTs are of comparable good standard? If a school can save money by paying this year's new teachers less than last years' why is this so strange? Don't organisations back home/in "the West"/not in China do that as well?
| The Ever-changing Cleric wrote: |
| one of the things I like about the place I work is that they've made (human resources related to FTs) improvements over the time I've been here, and it doesnt go unnoticed. When a school demonstrates this type of behaviour, then the employees (should) want to return the favour, improving the quality of work and thereby improving the atmosphere of the workplace in general. Call it a sense of loyalty, which good employees and good employers should have towards one another. |
You and Eva really do seem to be in your own little world where you're the King and Queen of the castle dictating what you will and won't put up with. You must be extremely worthy teachers to have Chinese value you so much. I'm happy for you. But not everyone can be a king or queen in China. Most of us are lowly naives, subject to the whims of Emperors.
But anyway, I'm getting very bored of this whole issue.
Sorry, that wasn't such a little interjection...carry on... |
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The Ever-changing Cleric
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 1523
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:53 am Post subject: |
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jeez, I've got half a mindto put my pope avatar back up 
Last edited by The Ever-changing Cleric on Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:55 am; edited 2 times in total |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:53 am Post subject: |
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I
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| disagree that most people find themselves in this position (being exploited). |
Sorry for the mis .....
I mean that most who are exploited.. not that most are exploited... |
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Mister Al
Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 840
Location: In there
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:11 am Post subject: |
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eva
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| .and a contract signed over the internet is not really binding ... |
Not quite true........a contract can be binding so long as there is evidence of an agreement and that includes oral or other unsigned agreements. Eg: Consumers buying goods and services on the net are generally entering into a legally binding contract.
However as we know in China it is very difficult for a FT to enforce a contract if the other party breaches the agreement. |
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kev7161
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 5880
Location: Suzhou, China
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| one of the things I like about the place I work is that they've made (human resources related to FTs) improvements over the time I've been here, and it doesn't go unnoticed. When a school demonstrates this type of behaviour, then the employees (should) want to return the favour, improving the quality of work and thereby improving the atmosphere of the workplace in general. Call it a sense of loyalty, which good employees and good employers should have towards one another. |
I'm in the same situation. My school actually raises my salary by 5% every school year based on my qualifications, background, and the work I do for them. I try my best to give them a good teacher in return. So far it's working out okay. There are some in the same boat I'm in and there's always room for more. But there are others who will nitpick and whine and show up late (or not show up at all!) for work and wonder why they aren't offered more money or more benefits or, heck, even a new contract! |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| Not quite true........a contract can be binding so long as there is evidence of an agreement and that includes oral or other unsigned agreements |
As I understand it.. a SAFEA contract signed over the net is non binding ona ll parties...I should have stated what kind of contract I meant..but as we were talking about Chinese employment .. I thought it would be understood... |
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