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starteacher
Joined: 25 Feb 2009
Posts: 237
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 Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:57 am Post subject: |
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"America and England are two nations divided by a common language." George Bernard Shaw.
Throw in a few more so-called English speaking nations, and you've got more divisions. |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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seklarwia posted
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| Not to the British though. Bobby as a name is quite rare. It might be used occassionaly as a nickname but Bob is more common. You ask a Brit the same question and they pretty much always tell you that its a common name for our police. |
Yes I know, from a combination of reading a number of British novels and visiting the UK every summer for the last 12 years (as well as having lived in HK when it still was under British rule). Bobbys can be helpful and be a hindrance sometimes, very similar to the police here.
Mr_Monkey posted
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| Can you explain to me why an understanding of idiomatic English is important, given the international contexts in which NNSs of English actually use their language? |
I would say idiomatic English sometimes isn't that useful, but sometimes it does enter into business jargon. Surprisingly, sports terminology does too, where I was chagrinned that a fellow American didn't know what a suicide squeeze play was. then again, not every American male likes to watch or play sports.
Aspara posted
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| And I'm a native speaker born and raised in New Zealand, and had no idea what a rice burner was either, if not literally something that burns rice. You probably don't know what jandals are, but that doesn't mean your English is suspect, even though that's an everyday word in NZ. There is a lot of regionalism in English, and even within a region not all age groups and demographics are going to know the slang of all the others. |
Yes, I learned the expression "I need to take a slash" when I was in HK. Still comes in useful sometimes  . |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| gaijinalways wrote: |
Yes, I learned the expression "I need to take a slash" when I was in HK. Still comes in useful sometimes . |
And I've had the pleasure of having to teach an amazing amount of Chinese girls that not only is pub talk and not an appropriate way to announce going to the toilet in an formal situation like say... like to your lecturer in the middle of class for all to hear, but that girls don't "take a slash".
Business idiomatic expressions and jargon would be useful to know but once again you'll hit that evil region specific wall.
I've had a fair bit of high level business experience but never come across "suicide play". I tried searching "suicide play" and came up with a load of results for a russian play, a suicide play for backgammon (which I didn't understand since I don't know the rules) and something for dodgeball (which for most of my life I didn't even know was a proper sport with rules... which of course I don't know, so I didn't understand).
Of course, us Brits have a whole heap of sports idioms, some of which can be and are used in business. Of course they are based on our national sports. For example: "it's/that's cricket/not cricket"
It's used a lot more with older businessmen/women. I'm guessing the Australians might have this expression, possibly NZ too, since they are cricketing nations.
Is cricket even a well known sport in the US?
PS. By well known I don't mean have they simply heard of the sport. I mean they not only recognise cricket as an individual sport as opposed to a "boring British version of baseball" (If they ever need an actress for yet another Clueless sequal, I know the perfect girl) but also know the basic rules even if they have never played it.[/b] |
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starteacher
Joined: 25 Feb 2009
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| girls don't "take a slash". |
Always was able to ovecome this confusion by teaching new verbs such as "do a number one" and "do a number two". What would follow would be a highly intellectual English lesson on the present, past, continous and perfect tenses of these verbs. e.g. John Travolta had been doing a number two when Bruce Willis shot hit at point blank range 
Colloqualisms, epheumisms, idioms, slang ..... that's when all the students begin to feel what the heck they had been doing for the last 999 years sweating through exams, when this is what's it all about. After all, after a few rounds, somehow the conversations get pretty even whatever the nationality. 
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| "boring British version of baseball" |
Isn't that rounders ? |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| starteacher wrote: |
| Always was able to ovecome this confusion by teaching new verbs such as "do a number one" and "do a number two". What would follow would be a highly intellectual English lesson on the present, past, continous and perfect tenses of these verbs. e.g. John Travolta had been doing a number two when Bruce Willis shot hit at point blank range |
The girls weren't my students, but classmates. I was one of the minority non-Chinese in many of my classes. In one of my "famous" lectures there was about 80 students. I was the only Brit, there was one German, one Austrian, one Spanish and 5 Japanese. The rest were all Chinese.
Most of them wanted to sound as native a possible so would try to learn all kinds of slang and idioms. They normally went to places like Wetherspoons where beer filled local men were more than happy to fill the girls with absolutely vulgar terms; "slash" is one of the few I'd be able to post about here without getting in trouble with the mods.
But not knowing if, when or how to use them, the girls normally dropped them in when talking to teachers or in their essays in attempt to impress with how native like their English had become.
So some of the male teachers/lectures would approach me with lists of inappropriate things the girls were using. I then had to do damage control.
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| Isn't that rounders ? |
Nope. Many haven't seen or played rounders (not supripsing since you can't just turn on the TV and see it; not even in the UK). So rounders is just the English name for baseball like football is the English name for soccer.
Cricket is really boring baseball - I'm no fan of baseball, but even I'm inclined to agree with them.
And rugby is American football with the rules all messed up... as if American football is old enough to have come before rugby |
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Apsara
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, rounders- reminds me of my primary school days!
And yes, seklarwia, we use all the cricket idioms in NZ and of course they do in Oz too- sometimes I have had to stop myself saying "That really knocked me/him etc. for six" when talking with English-speaking friends as most of them are north American, although it's an idiom I like.
Not too long ago I commented to a Candian friend that something had "put a spanner in the works", and she said "A what?". |
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Mr_Monkey
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 661
Location: Kyuuuuuushuuuuuuu
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| Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| gaijinalways wrote: |
| And I've had the pleasure of having to teach an amazing amount of Chinese girls that not only is pub talk and not an appropriate way to announce going to the toilet in an formal situation like say... like to your lecturer in the middle of class for all to hear, but that girls don't "take a slash". |
Agree with the first part, disagree with the second - I've heard British women say they're "off for a slash" before. They didn't say it in the middle of a Modern French Literature seminar though, and nor would I.
When it comes to issues of appropriacy, I prefer to give my learners a choice - the can say things like that, if they choose, but it is necessary for them to understand that the language they choose to deploy will be reflected in the judgements people make of them. The key is ensuring the learners understand that the language they use will be more-or-less fit for purpose depending on context, and that they need to exercise good judgement before deploying a term.
As for Filipinos teaching English in Japan, I view the whole notion of idiomaticity as a red herring. The simple fact of the matter is that learners of English as a foreign language rarely use idiomatic English anyway. There are a couple of reasons for this, efficiency of learning being the most important. Given the great variety of idiomatic terms between native speakers of different dialects, and the strong regional identities that these variations reflect and reinforce, it is simply a waste of time to expect EFL learners to acquire and use such terms. The learners may express an interest in idiomatic English (often they say they want "real" English, but are hard-pressed to define what they mean by it), but they have so little opportunity to use it that I generally tell my learners that - while they are perfectly welcome to learn, and later use, idiomatic English in class should they choose (depending on context) - they really do have more important things to worry about.
A Filipino teacher of English (or indeed any non-native-speaking teacher of English) would probably not even entertain the notion of teaching regional varieties of English, and would more likely stick to the common core of the language that they have learnt and most people use.
May I suggest that the biggest issue here for native-speaking teachers is competition and wage depression? Rather than lazily hiding behind the naive assumption that the English we native speakers teach is somehow 'superior' to that taught by non-natives, we should be focussing on making sure that we are better teachers than the competition. That's the only way we'll be able to keep our jobs in the future. |
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fat_chris
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| May I suggest that the biggest issue here for native-speaking teachers is competition and wage depression? Rather than lazily hiding behind the naive assumption that the English we native speakers teach is somehow 'superior' to that taught by non-natives, we should be focussing on making sure that we are better teachers than the competition. That's the only way we'll be able to keep our jobs in the future. |
Mr. Monkey,
I agree with you 100% on this statement. For example, how many native speakers can really teach and explain a grammar point so that students fully understand it? JTEs, who are...ahem...non-native speakers, can do this, can we?
It is definitely all about making sure we are better teachers.
Regards,
fat_chris |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| gaijinalways wrote: |
| And I've had the pleasure of having to teach an amazing amount of Chinese girls that not only is pub talk and not an appropriate way to announce going to the toilet in an formal situation like say... like to your lecturer in the middle of class for all to hear, but that girls don't "take a slash". |
Agree with the first part, disagree with the second - I've heard British women say they're "off for a slash" before. They didn't say it in the middle of a Modern French Literature seminar though, and nor would I. |
You quoted wrong. I said that not Gaijinal.
And I use it occassionally too but we know that it is a man thing, whereas the Chinese girls don't. |
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Mr_Monkey
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 661
Location: Kyuuuuuushuuuuuuu
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| Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| seklarwia wrote: |
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| gaijinalways wrote: |
| And I've had the pleasure of having to teach an amazing amount of Chinese girls that not only is pub talk and not an appropriate way to announce going to the toilet in an formal situation like say... like to your lecturer in the middle of class for all to hear, but that girls don't "take a slash". |
Agree with the first part, disagree with the second - I've heard British women say they're "off for a slash" before. They didn't say it in the middle of a Modern French Literature seminar though, and nor would I. |
You quoted wrong. I said that not Gaijinal.
And I use it occassionally too but we know that it is a man thing, whereas the Chinese girls don't. |
Damn the quotes-within-quotes-within-quotes!
The point still stands, although I'm not sure what you mean buy "man thing" beyond the fact that men use the term more than women. does that mean that I can claim it as mine? |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:00 am Post subject: |
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It means to actually slash you need to be able to projectile unrinate standing up, i.e something that only a guy can do. But we use aswell in jest. So whilst we are using it knowing what it really means, the Chinese were using it thinking it meant something it doesn't, so its not the same.
Its like one girl asked me why an English friend got upset when she called her a b***c. Just because some people may call their close friends that it doesn't mean you can call any friend that... which we know and understand, but they often do not. |
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Mr_Monkey
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 661
Location: Kyuuuuuushuuuuuuu
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| Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| seklarwia wrote: |
| It means to actually slash you need to be able to projectile unrinate standing up, i.e something that only a guy can do. But we use aswell in jest. So whilst we are using it knowing what it really means, the Chinese were using it thinking it meant something it doesn't, so its not the same. |
Fair enough.
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| Its like one girl asked me why an English friend got upset when she called her a b***c. Just because some people may call their close friends that it doesn't mean you can call any friend that... which we know and understand, but they often do not. |
We agree. |
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