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How do you explain this currious use of grammar??

 
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kidkensei



Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 2:56 am    Post subject: How do you explain this currious use of grammar?? Reply with quote

If there is a better forum for these questions please let me know.



Question 1

'Have you ever gone to Okinawa many times?'

I want to say here that you have one chance in a breath or utterance to indicate time and therefore even and many times are incompatable. Just like 'Have you ever gone to Okinawa alot?'

Apparently in Japanese this works. My explanation is however lacking given that you can say

'Last year I went to Okinawa many times.'

Question 2

'John has become sick for 3 days'
The sentence should be
'John has been sick for 3 days'

The student asked why you cant use the verb become like this. Apparently in Japanese there isnt a difference.

Question 3

My JTEs, insist that the verb 'gone' means 'go and NEVER come back'
My JTEs insist that the verb 'went' means 'you went and came back'

When I, the Ontarian is asked on the spot in the class room whether i have been to the USA I respond 'Yes, my family has GONE there many times {for holidays}.'

Has my knowledge of Eng grammar during my short stay in Japan really retrogressed to such an incomprehensible level?
Can anyone help me here?
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move



Joined: 30 May 2009
Posts: 132

PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd recommend picking up a copy of blue Azar or Michael Swan's Practical English Usage, and looking up Present Perfect tense.

In a nutshell, present perfect tense deals with an action that happened in the past (at an unspecified time) that relates to the present.

Example:
Have you ever gone to Disneyland?
I have gone to Disneyland many times/I have never gone to Disneyland.
I have worked at Famima for 3 months/I have worked at Famima since March.

I think the closest translation for the first example is Disneyland itta koto aru? (Have you ever gone to Disneyland).

For the second example, although it says you went to Disneyland many times, it doesn't specify when. If you give specific times, then you would use simple present tense. For example, I went to Disneyland in 2005 and 2007.

For the third example, present perfect tense can refer to an action that began in the past and continues until now. This is similar to present perfect continuous. Contrast - "I have worked at Famima for 3 months" AND "I have been working at Famima for 3 months."

For your question about become, become might be a bit abstract so I would use an easier example to illustrate the point like - I am asleep, then I wake up, then I am awake. Or I am not hungry, then I become hungry, then I am hungry. I usually do some nifty excessive English teacher gesture like snapping my fingers to illustrate that this action happens quickly so we would use simple present tense.

BTW, your JTEs are wrong to say gone means to never come back. Like "he has gone to the store" is perfectly fine. But best to not contradict them in class, it would just make em angry and confuse the students.

Hope this helps....
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Apsara



Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If someone says to me "he has gone to the store" I assume he is still there.

In this case: "'Yes, my family has GONE there many times", I would say "yes, my family has been there many times". Maybe a regional thing?
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seklarwia



Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano

PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With regards to "has gone", maybe your JTE expressed it badly or is a little confused. According Mr 'Grammar-Guru' Swan:

"We use the present perfect especially to say that a finished action or event is connected with the present in some way."

He has gone to the shop = He went and hasn't come back (he is still at the shop now). He may/may not come back in the future.

He went to the shop = refers to the finished past action. We know he went to the shop. He might have come back or he might have gone elsewhere after, but he isn't at the shop now.


"In general, the simple past is the 'normal' one for talking about the past; we use it if we do not have a special reason for using one of the other tenses."

The problem here is that many native speakers actually use the simple past when they should be using another tense.

If someone asks: Where has Tim gone? (they know that Tim left sometime in the past but want to know where he is now)
The correct answer is: He has gone to the shop. (Tim left in the past and that is where he is now)
But you'll likely hear: He went to the shop. (which isn't telling you where Tim is now; only where he was in the past)
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GambateBingBangBOOM



Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 11:46 am    Post subject: Re: How do you explain this currious use of grammar?? Reply with quote

kidkensei wrote:


Question 1

'Have you ever gone to Okinawa many times?'

I want to say here that you have one chance in a breath or utterance to indicate time and therefore even and many times are incompatable. Just like 'Have you ever gone to Okinawa alot?'

Apparently in Japanese this works. My explanation is however lacking given that you can say

'Last year I went to Okinawa many times.'



The way it would be translated into English would be "have you been to Okinawa many times?". (And the JTE could reply "ah but it says 'koto aru?' which we think means 'have [you] ever...'. And the answer to that is that it means 'have [you] ever' only in the context of having first experienced it.) You cannot translate phrase by phrase without context and expect it to work out and yet many JTEs do exactly that.

Quote:


Question 2

'John has become sick for 3 days'
The sentence should be
'John has been sick for 3 days'

The student asked why you cant use the verb become like this. Apparently in Japanese there isnt a difference.


That's right. In Japanese the word for 'become' (naru) can be used like this (natteiru). You wouldn't translate the latter as 'become' in English, because that's not actually what it means in English. Different languages have different sets of rules. Again, it's a case of trying to translate directly from one language into another, and that's really just not going to work out.

Become indicates a change in English.
Websters dictionary for 'become':intransitive verb
1 a: to come into existence b: to come to be <become sick>
2: to undergo change or development


If you have been sick for three days, then that is not a change, it is the result of a change. The result of a change is still part of 'become' in Japanese (Another example of the same thing: To marry someone is 'kekkon suru' To be married is 'kekkon shiteiru'. But you can't say 'to be become' in English [which is actually what they are trying to say by translating directly from Japanese when they say 'X has become sick for three days], all that would really mean in English is 'be'). The result of a change is not part of the word that indicates the change itself in English. But it can be in Japanese. It's pretty much that simple.

Quote:

Question 3

My JTEs, insist that the verb 'gone' means 'go and NEVER come back'
My JTEs insist that the verb 'went' means 'you went and came back'

When I, the Ontarian is asked on the spot in the class room whether i have been to the USA I respond 'Yes, my family has GONE there many times {for holidays}.'

Has my knowledge of Eng grammar during my short stay in Japan really retrogressed to such an incomprehensible level?
Can anyone help me here?


"gone" is the past participle of go. It doesn't always mean 'went and never came back'. That's a rule that Japanese kids are often taught. Japanese teachers learned English through a pedagogical grammar. That means it's a simplified grammar for learners. When you say that you've GONE someplace, you focus on the act of going, the trip itself. When you say you've been there, you focus on the state of being in that place. So when you say you've gone to the States many times, that means your family got in the car and drove there many times. We don't need to be told "My family has gone to the States, but then come back, many times" because the sentence wouldn't make sense if you hadn't come back. If a JTE tells you that what you've said is 'wrong' then what they are actually saying is that you've said something that doesn't fit the rules that they learned in a simplified version of the grammar as shown to them in textbooks written by non-native speakers of the language for other non-native speakers of the language in order for them to study and pass a test and NOT to actually be able to use the language. What you said is exactly the way I would say it as well (I'm from Ontario, too).
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gaijinalways



Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279

PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"gone" is the past participle of go. It doesn't always mean 'went and never came back'. That's a rule that Japanese kids are often taught.
Quote:
Japanese teachers learned English through a pedagogical grammar. That means it's a simplified grammar for learners. When you say that you've GONE someplace, you focus on the act of going, the trip itself. When you say you've been there, you focus on the state of being in that place. So when you say you've gone to the States many times, that means your family got in the car and drove there many times. We don't need to be told "My family has gone to the States, but then come back, many times" because the sentence wouldn't make sense if you hadn't come back. If a JTE tells you that what you've said is 'wrong' then what they are actually saying is that you've said something that doesn't fit the rules that they learned in a simplified version of the grammar as shown to them in textbooks written by non-native speakers of the language for other non-native speakers of the language in order for them to study and pass a test and NOT to actually be able to use the language. What you said is exactly the way I would say it as well (I'm from Ontario, too).


Ditto on that. Too many speakers here, when they use English, are fossilized on what their nonnative teachers/books taught them. If you do get a day when Japlish becomes a standard world English, then the Japanese 'meaning of English' might be okay when it comes to such usage. "Let's English" until then Rolling Eyes !"
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