| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
|
 Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:52 am Post subject: |
 |
|
The book you want is actually called Discover Debate, by Michael Lubetsky, Charles LeBeau (I've met him; he's good.), and David Harrington. I used portions of the book for HS debating projects with 3rd-year students.
Others you may want to examine include:
Take A Stand (Paul McLean, Macmillan)
Taking Sides -- Critical Thinking for Speech, Discussion and Debate (Stephen Hesse, Kinseido)
Viewpoints: For and Against (Vance E. Johnson, Kinseido)
My Opinion, Your Opinion (Paul McLean, Macmillan)
They all have some good elements and some poor ones. Good topics, poor topics.
You HAVE to prime the kids with enough expressions to make the whole task worthwhile.
You HAVE to make them think, or they will just prepare statements and NOT be able to think on their feet (especially for counterpoint and rebuttal).
To respond to earlier points:
| Quote: |
| --what would be the preferred method of debating: using prepared written statements or having an "impromptu" style debate? |
See above. Written point, written counterpoint is good for starting the process, but if you REALLY want them to learn how to debate (not just express their opinions), they have to have impromptu forms of debate. See more below.
| Quote: |
| --would there be time limits involved? |
YES! Without this, you could wait interminably for a single response.
| Quote: |
| --after the initial speeches, would there be time for rebuttals? |
There MUST be, or else you are only teaching them how to state an opinion, not express counter-opinions and attack people's facts vs. opinions or their strategies of stating the initial points.
| Quote: |
| --will you provide them with a model first to demonstrate to the students how it can work (between you and a JTE, for instance)? |
YES! Show them how it's done, whether you are teaching past tense or the complexities of debating.
| Quote: |
| --would you require that students be able to learn BOTH sides of the topic in order to better understand their own argument and justify their own points of view? |
GIVE them both sides.
1) Force them to write both sides of an issue.
2) Force half of them to write one side, and the other half of the students to write the other side. Emphasize they MUST come up with ideas no matter what their TRUE feelings on the point are.
| Quote: |
| The format isn't decdied completely yet |
DECIDE! NOW! Everything depends on this. Dawdle too long, and you risk having a half-arsed project and unmotivated students.
| Quote: |
| mostly I just want to get students to be able to put forward an idea nad explain the reasons |
Whose idea was debating -- yours or someone else's? What you just wrote above is only expressing opinion, not debate. Even if you add
| Quote: |
| other students can learn how to say, "Hmmm....I see what you mean but..." and then give their reasons. |
it's not debating.
| Quote: |
| just how do I find the magic formula to move from good ideas to heated debate? |
There is no magic formula. It will take a lot of training and experience, especially with a culture of conformists and conservative types who don't believe in opposing others publicly. Your students may speak well, but their culture may not let them speak heatedly. Work in babysteps.
If you want critical thinking to figure out how to devise strategies and combat them, that's much higher level work.
Uh, how much time did you plan to spend on this? I asked earlier but you didn't answer. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Yona Yona
Joined: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 26
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ssjup81 wrote: |
| Yona Yona wrote: |
| Cool Teacher can't be real. |
 Sounds too good to be true, right? |
Ermmm...right.....  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ssjup81
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 664
Location: Adachi-ku, Tokyo, Japan
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Yona Yona wrote: |
| ssjup81 wrote: |
| Yona Yona wrote: |
| Cool Teacher can't be real. |
Sounds too good to be true, right? |
Ermmm...right..... |
What? I feel it's a "cool project". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Yona Yona
Joined: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 26
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
I respeckt you're oponion  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cool Teacher
Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hi yes tomorrow I start and finish Friday  the fromat is 1 opening statements 2 present rebuttals 3 questions 4 vote.
Thanks for the book tips Glenski, |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cool Teacher
Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
| sorry about typoes, in a rush! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cool Teacher
Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hay, thaks again for the book tips Glenski. 
For others interested in this project, here's a link to the first book
http://www.amazon.com/Discover-Debate-Michael-Lubetsky/dp/1929274424
It looks great!!!
So I don't know if this is going to go perfectly but here goes with my format:
1. Opening statements. Today the students will write their opinions and prepare both sides of the issue. (I will ask the class what side they want to arguye but if it is too one-sided I will select the teams myself!)
2. Students present their rebuttals. The students will listen to the first group and then say, "Yes, I see what you mean but..." etc... Yes I know that this is a bit mechanical but like Glenski says it is babysteps. This is the first time for them so they can go slow and with me holding their hand a bit.
3. Questions. This is a time when students listen to the others and make their own quesitons about what they heard and then hopefully it will lead to some free-flow. I will moderate so maybe I will also ask some questions and model the way to do it...
4. Final points. Ss have a last chance to make their points and then we have a vote.  Remember we voted at the beginnig so it could be different after the debate. Then I will give feedback for good sentences and points and award the winner!!!!
Okay, this is the first tiem and yes it was my idea which I decided a bit suddenly. We will try it again after we see how it goes and make changes for the next time. I think this coukd go really well I am confident!
Thanks for all the help guys and gals!
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kteacher
Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 9
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hey I haven't read this full thread but here's my thoughts. (sorry if i repeat)
I LOVE teaching debate. It's definitely more important to focus on language than the order or format of the actual debates. (if students are stating their opinion and backing it up with facts ur doing your job as teacher)
I also found with the high school class i taught students got more into it if they could choose the topic. I always had a list of 5 or 6 ideas handy and encouraged students to think of their own.
It also works better to have them do 2 against 2 rather than larger teams.
I think it's a great skill for students to learn. English speakers love arguing and speaking their opinion, and many Japanese students are not comfortable with this.
For topics i always just did a google "debats topics" and lists came up.
good luck! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kteacher wrote: |
| I LOVE teaching debate. It's definitely more important to focus on language than the order or format of the actual debates. (if students are stating their opinion and backing it up with facts ur doing your job as teacher) |
I'll try not to feel completely insulted with that last remark. Most of my students couldn't back up an opinion (if they even had one), if their lives depended on it. Support is very weak over here.
| Quote: |
| I also found with the high school class i taught students got more into it if they could choose the topic. I always had a list of 5 or 6 ideas handy and encouraged students to think of their own. |
And, in my experience, their topics have been very lame. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cool Teacher
Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Glenski wrote: |
| kteacher wrote: |
| I LOVE teaching debate. It's definitely more important to focus on language than the order or format of the actual debates. (if students are stating their opinion and backing it up with facts ur doing your job as teacher) |
I'll try not to feel completely insulted with that last remark. Most of my students couldn't back up an opinion (if they even had one), if their lives depended on it. Support is very weak over here.
| Quote: |
| I also found with the high school class i taught students got more into it if they could choose the topic. I always had a list of 5 or 6 ideas handy and encouraged students to think of their own. |
And, in my experience, their topics have been very lame. |
But I agree with kteacher's opininon. You said we need to work in baby steps and I agree too. I think the best things to do is get students to express their opoinions. They do have them and this is the first bit before we challenge the debate.
I haven't tried asking students for debate topices. Maybe I will do it next time. I don't expect Dick Chainey vs Barak Obama just yet!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kteacher
Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 9
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
Glenski believe it or not my reply has nothing to do with you.
sooo
the first quote was not a comment on you as a teacher, and who cares if their topics are lame. It's not your student's job to entertain you, and obviously I wouldn't let them debate a topic that didn't have 2 sides to it.
I aware that backing up their opinion or even having one is hard for many Japanese students. This is why i love teaching it. It makes my students think in a new way.
To clarify I have taught 4 different debate classes. Where the sole point of the class was to learn debate and I have recently incorporated it in to my uni conversation class. All of the classes have been with high beginner to advanced level students. This is obviously not the level of most high school classes. I'm not saying this to prove I'm qualified, just to give some context where I'm coming from.
Having even basic students make the sentence... I think ______ because ______. Is not asking too much.
But back to the point of the thread....
Some good topics I've gotten with high school students are...
School Uniforms (which you're doing)?
Being forced to learn English?
Should high schools be co-ed? (did this one at one of the few co-ed schools in my area)
cell phones in school (mp3's, mini computers)
I don't know if it's been mentioned. But when we start a new debate i do a class brainstorming session for both sides to help students form their argument. I also try to have some "questions for consideration" prepared for the same reason.
OP Happy teaching! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cool Teacher
Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hi guys and gals!
I finished the debate class and it was not so bad, almost preetty good!
The format was like this:
Each Student gave an opening statement. It was only about two or three sentences like this "I think school unifroms are a good idea because..."
There were ten students so thats two groups of five. (Yesterday I introduced the topic and got them to think of reasons for both sides and have them write pros and cons and then they finished by writing a sentence like the one at the top and they could finish it for homework) The groups were randomly chosen by me.
Then I wrote down each point by each student and gave points for well delivered openings and then I aksed the opposite side like this: "Okay, Nozomi said school unifroms are good because students can wear them to funerals and weddings and formal occasions. Do you want to respond?" Then students form the other group can say, "Yes, I see your point but,..." or "I agree with you but..." and "Yes studens can... on the other hand..." and so on and so forth...
Sometiems I had to pull thier teeth a bit at the beginning but soon I found students really getting in the swing and then the debate became more free with students talking backward sand forwarfs. Soon I didn't have to do much but keep them to one at a time. So, I think it was really succesful. They weren't perfect but they did it really well!
I felt we didn't really have enough time and we need ot builf on it a bit more. I had no problem getting students to give opinions. They do have them they need to learn how to express them as kteacher says they are not robots and they are not lame and I thikn the best thing is give them the opportuinty to give opinons I think I wnat to try this again one day, maybe next semester!
If anyone has more feedback or tips or examples then please add to the thread and we can make it the official debate resource!!!!
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kteacher
Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 9
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Glad to hear it went well for you!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cool Teacher
Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 12:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Hay thanks kteacher! Yes it went well and I hope I can help newbies too but I want to try and make it better. Now its holiday time though have a good summer. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
