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shin12 · Joined: 20 Feb 2009 Posts: 37

Hi ,

I am wondering if anyone can help me. I am in the process of doing the celta test for a course starting in August and I am just a little stuck. If anyone could give me a helping hand i would be ever go grateful

How would you try to get across the meaning of the phrase "Would you like...?" (as in "Would you like a coffee?") to a group of complete beginners who do not share a mother tongue (50-100 words)?

I was ok with ones before this but my mind is a blank with this . Thanks in advance

fluffyhamster · Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:44 pm Post subject:

The function of 'Would you like a coffee?' is one of "offering" or somesuch, so it would help to present a jar of coffee, or at least a picture of some, to help make the language-offer seem more real in the classroom (which can be a pretty barren and non-ostensive place without 'realia' (objects) being brought in). And tea etc as an alternative ('...or (a) tea?') would help even more. Who knows, there could even be a kettle available with which to make some real brews to relax with and chat over! Very Happy

shin12 · Joined: 20 Feb 2009 Posts: 37

Thanks for that big help Smile

could i just pick your brain with one more please .... Am i going along the right lones ?

2. Approaches to Teaching and Learning
1. Imagine you are teaching a multilingual group of 12 adult learners at beginner level.

i) What problems might your students have in understanding these sentences (50-100 words)?
I've got a headache.
I've got a sore throat.
I've got a cough.

I have put that students will learn I have first in terms of possession so it will confuse them to think they possess a headache .. Is that right ?
Is that true of sore theoat and cough ?

thanks in advance for any help really nice of you Smile

fluffyhamster · Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:53 pm Post subject:

I don't think it would confuse students to go from basic/literal to more metaphorical forms of possession, even if in other languages they might prefer to say the equivalent of "My head/throat etc hurts" (if my knowledge - albeit limited - of Chinese and Japanese is anything to go by). So what you were suggesting ('I have put that students will learn I have first in terms of possession') seems fine; IMHO there's no need really to go on to mention any ("a/the") "problem" at all ('so it will confuse them to think they possess a headache') - you've got to appear to have some confidence in what you've apparently decided is the easiest, most logical and most acquirable ordering of linguistic items! Wink

Mike_2007 · Joined: 24 Apr 2007 Posts: 349 Location: Bucharest, Romania

I think with the first question ("Would you like...?") you might also need to make some mention of the fact that it's a polite offer (compared to "Do you want...?"

In the second question you've said they should understand it because they'll have already encountered the verb 'to have' but you're not using the verb 'to have' in those examples (except as an aux. verb).

Most speakers of Indo-European languages will have no problems grasping the concepts but beginners of other languages might. Turkish, for example, has no 'have' verb. They have a verb which means 'to own' but generally they use a different way to express possession (real or abstract). If they've seen 'to have' already then they might happily use 'I have a headache' but I suspect they would need further clarification of the use of 'to get' for possession.

nickpellatt · Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 1522

Ill quickly chip in my 2p's worth as well.

If they are a beginner group ... you need to assume they know nothing ... You actually need to assume that with many groups IMO, assume they dont know and pre-teach.

Anyway ... I dont think the 'have' issue is a problem ... gesture will overcome that very easily .... but they will have to remember head, throat as the most basic mistake could see them interchanging the two. The second issue is confusing a cough with a sore throat, and not seeing any difference between the two.

Finally ... this wont be a pass/fail task .... it is mainly to give you an insight into the type of problems teachers and students encounter.

fluffyhamster · Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:05 am Post subject:

Hi Mike. I was going to mention that 'have got' is different to simply 'have' by itself, but I decided that Shin was probably being a bit loose with his writing or would soon work these things out for himself, and 'I've got a headache' is hardly an example par excellence of Present perfect or whatever the aux+past participle construction there might be construed as (other than simply a sort of fused phrase i.e. it seems more similar to 'I've (got) ten quid on me now' than e.g. 'I've got fat/gained ten pounds' - witness ?'I've gotten a headache' (there's me trying to sound all "American" LOL)); basically (Shin) 'have+got' is what often does the work in British English instead of "'have' as the main verb with 'do'-support" (latter apparently more in American English). But then, you (Mike) did end with, "If they've seen 'to have' already then they might happily use 'I have a headache' but I suspect they would need further clarification of the use of 'to get' for possession"! Smile

As for Shin's earlier question about polite (implicitly versus more direct) ways of offering things, I wanted to spare him this beauty: http://forums.eslcafe.com/teacher/viewtopic.php?p=25785#25785

Very Happy

shin12 · Joined: 20 Feb 2009 Posts: 37

Thanks guys your input is a big big help .

I just have 1 more that i need some help clarification with

I've got a headache.
I've got a sore throat.
I've got a cough.

For cough I have put

Because there are many words in the English laguage that end in ough that do not follow the standard rules eg rough though.

Is that ok ?

I am stuck of the other two , any ideas would be really appreciated . Smile

nickpellatt · Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 1522

good point on the 'ough', we should have mentioned that. IMO, what you have here is enough ... it doesnt need you to waste more thought and time on it really .... I think there is always a danger of making things more complicated than they need to be.

If we do this, and make things more complicated, we have to try to explain a more complicated issue, which means more language used, which means that the learner may be more confused by the end of it. Beginner students need beginner language ... and they need explanations to be in similar beginner language. This (in my opinion) wouldnt really be much of a problem in a class. Gesture will explain 'ownership' of the ailment.

Students may make mistakes between them in terms of bodypart ... they may also make mistakes in pronouncing 'cough'. I would also be sure to ask concept check questions, like 'can you see a headache?', 'can you hear a sore throat?', 'can you hear a cough?'....at the end of the day though, they will have had headaches, sore throats and coughs...so they wont be alien to them.

(all IMO of course)

shin12 · Joined: 20 Feb 2009 Posts: 37

Hi thanks for that , itd my mistake i didnt make it clear that the test is asking me what problems students would have with the pronouncing these words . ? sore throat and headache ? any ideas .. thanks Smile

fluffyhamster · Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:59 am Post subject:

Can you hear a sore throat? That's a bit of a tricky one. But I guess if someone did indeed say 'a sore throat' then yes, I would be able to hear it. Razz

But seriously, I am wary of concept questions. When they aren't strange or surreal and affecting the 'genuineness' (the fidelity to real-world interactional norms and subsequent phrasings) of what's said by the teacher (who should be a primary source of quality spoken input), they are just doing busy work that ultimately a quick check in bilingual dictionaries would usually solve.

Betti · Joined: 03 Feb 2007 Posts: 44

I'm trying to remember the dim distant days of my celta test, so forgive me if I'm barking up the wrong tree...but...the confusion may lie with have got. Ss may think that because 'got' is often used as a past participle the sentence refers to a past sensation - Yesterday, I've got a headache (for example). We could say I have a headache, we can also say I've got a headache. The simplest way to avoid confusion would be to state (via mime) that I've got a headache = I have a headache.

Students are often confused by these types of collocations - natural instinct would be to translate every word thereby leading to a nonsensical result.

Blimey, even I'm confused now!

Betti · Joined: 03 Feb 2007 Posts: 44

Now realise my post is completely invalid as this is a pronunciation issue!