Job Discussion Forums

[freshofftheboat]

Let me preface this with I have read almost every single post from the first 2 pages and am BEYOND grateful to have found this thread. Nonetheless, searching for a teaching job in the private school zoo of Cairo is like being a rookie forensic scientist on a murder case: you don’t know quite what you are looking for, sure hope you will know it when you see it, but aren’t quite certain you will. It finally dawned on me, when determining salary here, one has to think like a mafia boss, not a teacher. There are no rules, scales and anything goes. But the problem is, my teacher brain is not trained to think that way. It seems like for what I do, what I know, and what I can do, there is a range of about 3,500 LE to 10,000 LE. That’s just too much of a range! I have always negotiated between much narrower variables. I don’t want to come off as a pompous idiot by asking for the moon, nor do I want to cheat myself from what others are getting. What pisses me off is I don’t think most of these folks even look at my resume. I have a strong resume, have helped many students, and have a strong background in cross-cultural training and experience, but I just get the impression they only see a couple of factors, like the fact that I am American, female, and a qualified teacher. The specifics don’t seem to mean much. I have gone on 4 interviews and no one has even asked me anything about what is on my resume!

So here’s what I have to offer:

• 12 years ESL experience
• 5 years international experience
• BA from top � school in America
• ESL Teaching certificate from top 10 institute in US
• 3 years university experience
• Presently working on masters degree (will be done next summer and although it is online it is no Mickey Mouse program, very academically rigorous)
• Worked 3 years at a very competitive SAT /TOEFL cram school and helped to get many students into prestigious universities

So to add to my confusion, I just got married to my Egyptian former fianc� (no we didn’t meet on the internet, knew the guy for 12 years). After the honeymoon period I started my job search. (I just got here a couple of months ago.)That is when I found out about the whole “foreign” vs. “local.” I am so angry that I didn’t know about this before. I would have postponed the marriage. To me it seems like a total discrimination to put (mostly) women into a different salary range because of one’s marriage status. So once I found this out, at interview 3 and 4, I kept that on the down low, but I certainty don’t feel comfortable doing so. Nonetheless, I feel like I don’t have any choice. I’m a Muslim convert/revert and if I weren’t, I would have probably stayed in a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship with him for a year or so and not married. Why do they even care?

On the other hand, I have read posts that say “No problem, I was married to an Egyptian when I got hired and am on a foreign contract” while others say “No way, that won’t work, once they know you are married, you are considered local plain and simple.”

So here’s the deal, I will be going to second interviews next week. That’s when they are going to offer me whatever they are going to offer. Of course, until now, the amount is under one big Egyptian amorphous cloud. I sit there, meeting all these people, drinking enough tea to thoroughly caffeinate a camel, but haven’t a clue about money. That is all for the big honcho to determine. They all ask “How much do you need?” How much will you work for?” I hate that question because I know I am locking myself in at whatever bottom number I utter, possibly erroneously. I already did that at 4,500 LE last week. Big mistake.

I am not going to even ask any direct questions other than to say “What is the strongest headache medication in Egypt one can buy??!!”

Help!!

[justcolleen]

I'm not VS and I'm not a guru. However, I am a Principal in an American school - and I'm married to an Egyptian - so maybe my perspective will help a little.

I would be suspicious about anyone who says they're married to an Egyptian and got a "foreign teacher" contract - flight, accomodation, etc. - at first glance. "Foreign teachers" ALWAYS means "abroad." Either they're solicited from abroad or they are in Egypt temporarily with no intention of staying unless they happen to find a job that suits them.

There's no way you'll be able to hide your marital status for long. At some point they'll want to see your passport and your residency stamp will stick out like a sore thumb. Do I advocate wearing your marital status like a badge of honor? No, because, as you've seen, it won't help you. But it will only hinder your salary prospects if you allow it to. My foreign friends and I refer to ourselves as "trapped," just because it's so hard to petition an Egyptian husband's foreign residency. Even so, it's not impossible. You know your value so maintain your resolve and don't let school owners try to minimize what you have to offer.

You also have to understand the Egyptian mindset that says it doesn't matter what it is, it's better if it costs less. Seriously, they will buy whatever is cheapest, even if it doesn't last long and they have to have it repaired repeatedly, not considering the cost of repair at all. They saved money on the initial purchase and that's all that matters.

When they ask how much you need (which means they're sizing up how well your husband is able to support you, thus the possibility of you taking him and fleeing the country) or how much you'll work for (which is also a question posed to Egyptians, believe it or not) don't answer with a sum. Instead, answer their question with a question, such as "How much are they selling those villas in New Cairo for?," or "I am keeping my financial options open because I know the value of my education and experience, so why don't you tell me what you'll pay a foreign (and USE the world foreign) teacher with my credentials?" Don't sell yourself short because you think that's what they want you to do.

If you want 10,000 LE, tell them you want 15,000 LE. They will come back with 5,000 LE. Then do what Egyptians do and talk it to death. Talk, talk some more, and keep talking. Wear them down until they offer you the 10,000 LE you DESERVE. If they don't, tell them you're insulted (as you should be) and excuse yourself to leave. If they let you go, you know what you're asking for is more than they can pay, not more than they're willing to pay because some schools just can't. If you love everything else about the school but the salary, pause at the door, tell them you'd like to talk about it some more, and sit back down. If they stop you from leaving, sit back down, dig your heels in, and let them think the 10,000 LE was their good idea.

Think about it like shopping at the bazaar. You never pay the first price out of the guy in the shop's mouth. If you did, the chances are you'll be paying for that scarf in DOLLARS. If he really wants to sell that scarf, he'll sell it for a reasonable price - it's value and not how much money he wants in his pocket.

[veiledsentiments]

au contraire justcolleen... you ARE the guru on the Egypt branch.

Fantastic advice

My take on the local hire/foreign hire thing is that in some ways it is fair that someone already living in Cairo... permanently... not get the extra benefits like tickets and a flat. BUT, they should get the same salary as a foreign hire if they have equivalent credentials. That is the situation at AUC. I was always hired in country and thus was local hire... even though I had no spouse providing housing. But, I did get the salary for my grade... partially in dollars... deposited into my US account.

Your credentials should put you at the top of the scale at any school/college/university in Cairo. Negotiation is the key...

VS

[freshofftheboat]

You may think you are not a guru but I will tell you, the whole bazaar analogy just made this enormous light bulb turn on in my brain. Sad, but totally true, and an important insight for anyone to consider who comes from a different mindset. You have been posting since 2004 and your insights demonstrate that. It may be as clear as day to you, but as my screen name states........

Another question came to mind, regarding my residency stamp. I applied but they have not given me my permanent residency until now. They have told us to come back in 10 days twice. I think it has something to do with my hijab (I have it on in my passport as well). First of all, I had to go to Azhar to "prove" that I am Muslim and get a religious certification. Then I turned all that in and they told the mister "her application is with the federal police." To me that sounded kind of scary. I thought to myself, "What on earth are they going to investigate other than my bad Egyptian cooking?" Really, I am just a teacher with no criminal history whatsoever, but my guy was told that that is standard procedure. So when I finally get the stamp, I am assuming the date is going to be recent. Would that have some kind of impact on my situation? I mean I could always say that I am planning on leaving if I don't find a good job. I might just do that if I get fed up .

I don't really understand what is the point of this local hire vs. foreign concept. Is it that historically the local employees were mostly cute ladies whose value fit the "we have international teachers" bill rather than solid academics and thus a trend followed to undervalue the local hires? Like in my interview, I shared with the gal that in another interview (school unmentioned) they wanted me to sign some clause that stated if I take off without giving notice, I owe them 2 months salary. Really, I started laughing. I had never heard of such a thing. Call me clueless. Then she told me "Well what recourse does a school have? Some people just take off and you only know they are gone when after not having shown up for work for a few days, one goes to their flat, all their belongings are gone, and the porter tells you Bill put all his belongings in a taxi, told me bye and went to the airport." I didn't know how to react. My first thought, "Well gee, what kind of work conditions would precipitate something like that? It couldn't have been a bed of roses." But of course I didn't say anything. This doesn't occur to them?

[freshofftheboat]

Your credentials should put you at the top of the scale at any school/college/university in Cairo. Negotiation is the key...

So VS, that is what I am trying to determine. What is the "top of the scale?" And are you sure about that? I am not finished with my master's. No PhD in sight.

[veiledsentiments]

Top of the scale will depend on which school it is. Justcolleen is the woman to tell you numbers. My experience is all university level. Finishing the MA will be the icing on the cake in future negotiations... I misread and thought you were finishing it this summer... sorry.

As to the residency stamp, the number one rule for the Egyptian government is to make everything as difficult and time-consuming as possible. Nothing is ever done in one trip, even if the right person is sitting in front of you because he doesn't feel like reaching down into his desk drawer today to take out the stamp, so come back next week insha'Allah. It is all dedicated to making you learn the real meaning of the word "ma'alish." You best get used to this system as it is how things go in Egypt... otherwise you will make your ulcers bleed.

Local vs Foreign. Foreign hire means that you get benefits and they are free flights to your home country at the beginning and end of the contract and in the summer time... two months off for summer with pay... a furnished flat... medical insurance to use the better hospitals... annual gratuity. These are benefits that need to be paid to get foreigners to come and live in a country and teach. If you are already living there with a local spouse, they don't need to tempt you to come... you've already made the choice. Most schools want to get native speakers... that is what sells to the parents in the private schools.

I think I would have laughed too at the idea of signing a piece of paper to owe 2 months pay if you leave early. After all if Mr Bill has loaded up the taxi with his stuff and gone to the airport, how will they get that two months pay unless they pay two months late. (which they just might try, BTW) What drives people to do such a thing? Often it is work conditions... and just as often it is that they hired someone with few credentials and no experience... just because they were a native speaker, not checking out that s/he is one of the expat loonies that are commonly rattling about the world trying to pay for their travel by teaching and moving on as soon as they can pay for the ticket for the next leg.

VS

[justcolleen]

[juliagirl]

I didn't negotiate that much due to the info I have gotten from this board and the 2 main posters here. However, I do ask for more as a rule and if the first salary offered was satisfactory, (what a diplomatic word) I ask for something in lieu of cash payment. Like the OP, my mind doesn't work this way by nature, I've had to force myself into becoming a negotiator. My experience is that teaching jobs are often more about supply and demand and your ability to negotiate (so glad I do most of mine online). It isn't always fair, but you need these skills to survive in other places day to day, unless you want to find yourself paying 30 USD for a watermelon (yeah, been there). Never say okay and close the book on negotiations unless you feel 100 per cent good about what you are doing. Once you sign, your stuck there. And being married there, well, midnight runs are out of the question.

[freshofftheboat]

I got my job! I got my 10 thousand!!! What a whirlwind of a week. Thank you so much just colleen and veil. By the way, I was hired under a new chategory "local-foreign" - that is fair. I AM NOT LOCAL. And no one really is for hiring purposes that was educated abroad. Your location should not effect your salary, but rather your education and experience. Don't sell yourself short people!

[justcolleen]

Mabrook!

"Local-foreign"? THAT is a good idea.

[rana]

Yes! Don't sell yourself short.

Just want to say I was hired IN Cairo many years ago as a foreign hire and I am Middle Eastern so even though someone says it is not possible still ask and insist, you may be surprised.