Job Discussion Forums

[GambateBingBangBOOM]

What do you think? Are they radicals fighting back at the tyranny of the Japanese totalitarian society?

Or are they just examples of socially inept people who went through an education system with no consequences, never really tried at anything (because they didn't have to) and never learnt that sponging off their parents is actually not a good thing to do (because... they didn't have to).

Japan's "herbivore" men shun corporate life, sex

[gaijinalways]

I don't think they are radicals for the reasons you gave; lengthy dependency period, and an inability to focus on providing for themselves through regular employment.

As to whether they want to pursue women, well there are other options . That being said, there are 'regular' Japanese men who don't know how to operate a washing machine (their moms still do their laundry) and still live at home until they marry.

There are people in Japan; both men and women, who are disinclined to accept the traditional 'married to work' conditions that still thrive in Japan at some companies. That in and of itself is not a bad thing, but the prolonged dependency issues that often develop along it are.

This dependency issue is not unique to Japan as Italy (and some other countries) also has 'young' males living at home until their 40s.

Not growing up can cause some problems in a society, but if it is tolerated by the parents, then it is a social issue. I hardly think the same people in any country would be considered 'radicals'.

[GambateBingBangBOOM]

It's the refusal to get a job / quitting their job very soon after discovering that Japanese people are now expected to actually work at work these days that most interests me.

I know some of these people are actually just not interested in girls, but many of them are, they just don't have the social skills or confidence to approach them.

The newspaper article makes it seem like a social uprising. But I think it's more of a result of children who were spoilt continue that existence far beyond when they were expected to (and now that there is an idea of lowering the official age of adulthood to 18... ) and parents in this country won't step up and say "Enough's enough! Get a job and start contributing or get out of my house!" the way they would in many other countries. These kids are just assuming that everything will be provided for them forever. What happens when their parents retire? How are these kids ever supposed to support them or save for their own retirement?

A possible scenario is that the corporate world in this country in twenty to forty years will be 1. old people about to retire. 2. women 3. foreigners. 4. a smattering of Japanese males who will be quickly promoted through the ranks regardless of ability based entirely on the fact that they are Japanese males.

I read somewhere that in order to keep its economy at the current level, Japan would need to start importing 300,000 foreigners every year for thirty years, starting LAST year. That's based on the current population levels. What happens when all these 'herbivores' are taken into account?

[RollingStone]

Totalitarian? Radicals?

quasi-hikikomori?

[desu]

sounds like grown up hikikimori to me. i would bet that one evolves into the other, it's a mental stigma that might have to do with disillusionment with the way the world is and is becoming (full speed ahead regardless if we should be making some major changes or not).

IMHO to them we no longer live in a time of hope and growth as we once did in previous decades. Especially considering how far Japan had come since the post-war situation, all that progress must have been pretty inspiring.

but now things have sort of stagnated, and at a global level too. society doesn't have the same sense of direction it once did, and this will inevitably lead to this sort of demographic. i bet it exists in other countries as well, but Japan is quicker to report it since it's a sharper contrast from the status quo than in other countries.

[Rooster_2006]

What's so bad about this?

Men who refuse to enter 60-hour-a-week corporate positions and spend every free hour trying to find a wife and start a family without even thinking in the first place why they want a family? Men who think that a "regular" employment position may not be iron-clad and may not last forever and bring eternal happiness? Oh my GOD!

That's just as bad as women who refuse to be Stepford wife-like baby incubators!

Oh, the humanity!

You guys, if the men mentioned in this article want to have no aspirations, let 'em. As long as they're either not a drain on society, or the people supporting them don't care. I mean, think about it -- thanks to guys like this, there will be fewer people in the labor market, and they'll need to ease immigration restrictions because there will no longer be enough Japanese people to fill all the jobs. And there'll be lower competition for jobs. And it's better for us guys, too, because we won't have as many other guys who are earning six figures to compete with in the dating game.

Maybe these guys have the bizarre mental illness of enjoying going through a whole day without compromising or apologizing on their knees for something that wasn't their fault.

Maybe these guys are afflicted with the utter insanity that says "72 hours of free time per week is better than 36."

After spending the last three years in Korea, where this kind of movement is absolutely non-existent, I'm really glad that Japan, where I'm planning to move either next year or the year after, has this kind of movement. If you read the newspaper article closely, the guys they interviewed actually do have jobs -- just not bring-a-cot-to-work jobs.

So many guys spend more than half their lives striving for things that society tells them they need -- a wife, kids, a job with long hours and prestige -- and then guess what, they have midlife crises! It looks like these men are aware of this phenomenon and have decided to live differently. Why stop them?

[seklarwia]

Rooster. Clearly you haven't really thought your idea through throughly. There are so many flaws that I don't even know where to begin.

Firstly, the resulting drop in the birthrate is a huge problem.

Next the jobs that will be openned up by the lacking Japanese labour force, are the jobs that most of us don't want anyway. Let's face it... the hours many of these salarymen work are obscene! There are many other aspects to their jobs that most of us would consider undesirable, such as the transfer culture that exists in many companies.

As for dating... the girls who you need money to compete for are goldiggers. If they can't find Japanese men earning high enough salaries, they'll just look to the real high earning foreigners. And due to the relaxed immigration laws and open labour market, you'll end up competing with loads of men from economically less developed countries, who are not afraid to put in the ridiculous hours to earn those high salaries.

[GambateBingBangBOOM]

[Rooster_2006]

[RollingStone]

Very interesting post by BOOM.

Hikikomori seem to be the more hardcore of this phenomenon that now includes herbivores. These are hardly radicals. They are symptoms of something much more distressing. Radicals affect society, intentionally, by intelligently and, to some degree, successfully, communicating a cogent and coherent counter-view to the status quo. Hikis and herbis are merely dropping out, and doing so because they do not have to worry about things like rent, food, clothing.

They are not `breaking gender roles` - which would involve participating in relationships but differently, radically perhaps (as described above). Instead, these guys are dropping out of relationships. A radical is society-minded. These guys are self-minded and dangerously self-involved and are in some ways the flip-side of the same selfishness that finds one devoting their life to work and advancement at the cost of their family. In fact, these guys are so `radical` that their `radicalness` depends on mom and dad paying the bills! (which not to mock the issue, but merely question the application of radical to describe these phenomena). These guys are following the example, not setting it.

[RollingStone]

In fact, not to change topic, but to suggest hikis and herbis are radical is to suggest that young Japanese women, sometimes referred to as parasites, (who you see walking around Tokyo wearing hundreds of dollars of clothing, accessories, beauty products etc) are `radicals`. Yes, they appear to be balking against the tradition of becoming, as was put earlier - `baby incubators` - but you have to consider the broader social issue.

They exploit their parents and continue to live dependent of their parents (not radical ); they exploit their boyfriends who continue part of the traditional role of paying for stuff (not radical ) and replace certain traditional expectations with nothing but selfishness and consumerism . In other words, like the hikis and herbis, they drop out.

It is interesting learning about these issues. It appears that, while certain aspects of Japanese identity were shattered last century, certain remnants have continued. Perhaps there is a transition period occurring, where youth sense the desire to change but do not know how to articulate it into something social and community oriented. Instead, they seem to collapse into passivity. They appear trapped between desiring to maintain status quo but simultaneously rejecting it. It is dangerous, and sad.

[GambateBingBangBOOM]

That isn't changing the topic, that's the same topic. The newspaper article seems to be suggesting that these people are part of a growing movement to change the way the world works in Japan (in other words, 'radicals').

But they aren't.

[Inflames]

I think Japan is changing and they're part of the change. It's hard to say exactly but a lot of young people don't want to put up with the hours and "responsibilities" of a job at a Japanese company (I'm not talking about actual work but I'm talking about some of the etiquette classes, mandatory transfers and company history/spirit stuff), but a lot of older people (management) feel differently. Moreover, the fact that most companies don't want to hire seishain but would rather hire hourly workers and dispatch workers can lock people out, but, at the same time, they don't want to hire people mid-career.

A lot of things are changing. I read an article 2 or 3 years ago about women in the workplace here. They had an example of one woman who worked for her father's company, and she got married and had a son. In the man's will, he said that his grandson (who was like 3 years old) should be the next president (not his only child or anyone else). For a Japanese person, it's hard to get a loan or apartment if you're not seishain. A lot of people don't feel comfortable getting married if they're not seishain as well, due to uncertainty. There was recently an article in the Wall Street Journal about Nomura's integration of Lehman Brothers. Apparently one of the things they did at a training session was to separate men and women, then tell the women how to do their hair, teach them how to serve tea, how to dress appropriately for the seasons, and things like that.

As for the students, there are a reasonable number who do just float through. Schools need to be empowered to fail students, yet they don't. Honestly, I think the problem of people who are supported by their parents is a bit overblown, yet there are such people. I dated one of them for about 6 months. I know her parents repeatedly told her to find a job (when we met, she had been working for a company for about 18 months, but quit soon after), which she would do, work for about 1 week, then quit. I told her to numerous times as well. In the end, she would just sit around, getting fatter and complaining about being bored. In the end, I told her exactly why I broke up with her (because of work). I don't think it's so much of a problem for women as a lot of them want to become housewives. I teach at a senmon gakko now, and 鉄道サービス is one of the majors. Every year, there's one of those guys who just can't speak any English. I had one last year and I have one this year, but the one this year is really bad. He can't even write his name in romaji.

[Noor]

[GambateBingBangBOOM]