Job Discussion Forums

[Twentyplus]

Oftentimes Saudi employers are looking for whites only to fill their teaching staff as they feel this is what their clients want. Does anyone know if the universities also discriminate based on race? Does anyone know any blacks working at Jubail, KAU, or KFUPM?

[Stephen Jones]

If you've got the qualifications apply. I know of 'blacks' working at all three places.

[sheikher]

Discrimination based on skin color is alive and well in the higher education sector.

Students have been known to withdraw from their English course if their professor is black. King Faisal University in Hofuf, for example, where the Saudi appointed to directorship was apparently less than supportive. Indeed, early in the semester he expressed the desire to fire the man without ever once inspecting his classes.

[12 Monkeys]

Hey you out there on the highest dune. Who are you? Better yet Where are you?

You have to be in Hofuf to know that kind of detail. The person you mention is my closest colleague. This Donald Trump wanna be goes around firing teachers on the whims of students. I told him personally "who are you going to believe; some adolesent 20 year old going on thirteen or a professional who knows what he's doing". This PYP director is not really fit for the job. I don't care how many PHds he has bought on-line, he is not qualified to be the director there. Heck even my 12 Monkeys can do a better job than him.

Cornelius of the Chimpanzee

[lrnoue]

I am closely acquainted with one of the supervising teachers at KFU Hofuf and the recent disparaging remarks offer little use other than defaming the PYP at this university.

My sources tell me that the program was highly successful and that the university is currently undergoing a major capital expansion project. If the situation on the ground in Hofuf is so dreadful, where are the complaints of the other 20+ expat teachers working there?

How about some objectivity for a change?

[Markemark]

There's rampant racial discrmination here. It's institutionalized and the primary victims of this in my eyes, are native speakers. I think Arab teachers often, very often in fact, are treated appallingly, but I feel I ought to discuss the issue with native speakers.
I actually feel reluctant to describe them as anything other than what they are- native speakers. That's enough. Let's leave it like that. Unfortunately, when faced with a choice of treating a black American Muslim teacher as simply- an American- rather than a black American, or a British teacher of Pakistani heritage as simply- a Briton, rather than a Pakistani with a British passport- guess which one they choose?
And, reinforcing this inherent racism is the racist auroa surrounding one company in particular, BAE, which is racist, and whose staff see it as one of the company's main selling points in the Kingdom.
But let's go back to the Saudis. It tells us a lot. Here, economic benefit, to justify low rages due to a man or woman's race- clearly works in the Saudi's favor. Wither Islam? And why are so many black American Muslims and UK Muslims too, willing to jump into what's effectively a pool of cheap labor. The answer? The teachers see Islam first, grasping Saudi second. Reversed the other way, employers see cheap worker- and Muslim second. A further factor apart from this naievete is the high likelihood that many Muslim teachers may not have a 'traditional' academic background, which is something recruiters in the west have considered when hiring people from ethnic minorities since the 1970's.
What would I say to this?
Until Muslims in this sad situation begin to arm themselves with the kind of qualifications other native speakers they will suffer from inevitable racism, whose derivative is not social, cultural or poltical- but economic strafication. What we need to be realistic about is saying that one of the primary drivers of racism historically- has been economic. I think this is something that often puzzles the victims of racism here- they ask how, if they are Muslim, can they be treated in such a way. It can't even be about race- east european teachers, who aren't even native speakers, often get as much as American or British Muslims.
My advice to offset this racism. Either get better qualifications, or, bargain, bargain, bargain- and always be prepared to walk away.

[Cleopatra]

[sheikher]

If Shabakah Training Establishment regards its denial of vacation pay and end-of-service entitlement to its teachers at King Faisal University as a legitimate and honorable business practise, then, yes, I suppose for select executives their enterprise would be construed as "successful".

Highly successful.

[joeboe]

The one thing I'll say in Saudi's favor...and aside from the scuba diving...it is truly the only thing... is this.

Unlike the Emiratis, the Saudis don't expect you-or even want you to like them- or, indeed, to fawn over them. In KSA the indentured servant- both upper and lower orders-lives in fear of his master and follows orders. Said indentured servant, in turn, gets paid, takes a vacation, gets deported, or is beheaded. End of Story.
In Abu Dahbi, on the other hand, one is required to marvel at the glories and multitudinous blessings of Emirati civilization...."Our Leaders are wise beyond human comprehension.... The UAE is a model of tolerence and peace... Emiratis are renowned throughout the world for their extreme hospitality and generosity..." Huh? (This last one I actually read in the Khaleej Times.).
I generally enjoyed my time in the UAE...except when I was being verbally abused by some maniacal Second Lieutenant or other...but they do lay it on a bit thick.

[scot47]

I disagree with the prvious poster
In my experience Saudis do actually want outsiders to approve of them and display their admiration for Saudi society.

[johnslat]

Dear scot37,
I agree - the Saudi are no different from any other society in taking pride in their culture, traditions, and history. "Fawn over them" - no. They can detect sycophants as easily as the rest of the world can. But if someone has a knowledge of their country - for example, the fact that it's virtually the ONLY country in the Middle East that never was "colonized" - they appreciate the fact that one has taken the time to acquire that knowledge.
Regards,
John

[Cleopatra]

I agree with Scot that Saudis - certain Saudis, at any rate - do very much want the approval of foreigners.

I think the main difference between KSA and the UAE (as well perhaps as some other smaller Gulf sheikhdoms) is that the Saudis don't pretend to be liberal or 'Western friendly', nor do they pretned that you're there for the 'lifestyle'. They know it's all about the money.

[Markemark]

Cleopatra, hi, always a pleasure.
Is it really based on nationality- rather than race? It is in the better run organizations where qualifications and experience are all that matter and policies are clearly stated.
Now, how many organizations are actually like that in practice?
Follow this through, please bear with me, if you accept that in a huge percentage of places employing EFL teachers in KSA, hiring practices are ill defined, negotiating is the name of the game, and salary guidelines simply don't exist, you also have to accept that the Saudi employer will essentially maximize his turnover where he can, whenever he can- on a case by case basis. Any strict and fair nationality based recruitment policy is then replaced with an ad hoc 'make it up as I go along' type strategy where native speakers from an ethnic minority background are suckered in with the brotherly love vibe- while non Muslims- and by that I mean caucasians, get down and talk real business in dollars and cents.
That is what is happening in low and even mid tier institutions.
Now, regarding the top performers, perhaps I am calling for some form of 'positive discrimination', but I find that to be perfectly realistic and acceptable and that teaching experience, willingness to work, cultural familiarity and commitment ought to count, just as they do in California, for example, or in most of the democratic west. That also prevents the development of racist cultures within organizations- and you know what I am talking about here.
There are lots of competent, dedicated and brilliant teachers from minority backgrounds who are perfect for work in Saudi Arabia, yet getting a very bad deal- primarily, not because they lack what really counts, but because they are willing to stay and are trapped in low and mid tier providers.

[Markemark]

[joeboe]

Saudi was never colonized?
Ever been to "Disco Nite" at the Aramco compound in Dhaharan?
I'm afraid both al-Qaeda and the editorial staff of "The Guardian" would be in sharp disagreement with you on this point.

By the way, what is now central KSA including Riyadh were a British protectorate from the end of WWI until the late 1920's.