Job Discussion Forums

[TEFLnoob]

Hey,
I've been lurking around these forums for a bit and finally decided to register. I just graduated in May with a degree in economics from a decent school (William and Mary) and with a decent GPA (3.3). I'm really interested in learning another language. I'm not TEFL certified or anything, but I speak reasonable German, and I believe that I have a pretty strong awareness of English grammar ad syntax patterns. I'd love to teach in Russia or Eastern Europe for a year or two. Am I qualified, and where should I start if I am?

I was given an offer from AEC (in Ukraine), but I've heard it's unprofessional, and I'm not sure that the approximately $1700 they give you per eight week cycle is enough to live on given that they don't provide air fare or housing. I was set with a contract to work for CDL in Korea but a misdemeanor underage possession of alcohol charge from four years ago (damn you Virginia) derailed that - to work in Korea a teacher apparently needs an immaculate record. I'm also getting responses from China, though it's difficult to tell which companies are legitimate - and I'm also worried about landing somewhere where I won't be able to pick up standard Mandarin.

Where do you guys think a good place to start is? I'm ultimately looking to teach for just a year or two and pick up a new language before heading back to grad school. Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.

[nickpellatt]

Are you qualified? No, not really. You think your grammar and English knowledge is good?

Do you understand the difference between second and third conditionals ... how would you explain the different functions of them?

How would you describe countable and uncountable nouns to language learners?

Thats the kind of grammar knowledge you 'may' encounter in teaching English ... and that may be different to the kind of English language skills you have. I would imagine you are most definately not qualified to teach English in Eastern Europe ... as far as Im aware from reading these boards and looking at job ads myself ... a decent TEFL cert such as a Trinity of CELTA qualification is the minimum most of these places ask for....and that will still normally only qualify you for entry level jobs.

Speaking the language is almost unrelated to speaking it ... which is why people take courses, study degrees and even MA courses in linguistics etc. It is worth considering taking some kind of recognised TEFL course to help you understand what the job entails...but also to do a decent job for both yourself ... and for your students who 'may' be paying fees for the honour of having a native speaker as a teacher. You mention in your post that one organisation you have talked to may be unprofessional...it could also be suggested a teacher with no training or teaching qualifications is also likely to be unprofessional

HOWEVER, whilst the early part of this post may seem harsh The rest isnt so harsh. If you are a native speaker, and have a white face ... then in China, that is suitable qualification for many places ... nothing else is needed. Add to that the fact you have completed a degree, you may well be better qualified academically, then many people teaching in China now! So yeah, working in China is definately possible, where teachers are often employed to take conversation or oral classes, often in environments that may be less professional that those encountered in other countries.

It is worth thinking about qualifications of some sort though ... although teaching in China is often de-professionalised, having some sort of training beforehand can and will make a difference to how enjoyable, and successful, you experience may be. It is possible that you could be pushed into a class in China, with 60 students of totally mixed ability, given no books or syllabus to follow...and told to just teach. Of course, a course doesnt teach you how to handle that situation ... but having some sort of training or experience makes a world of difference.

China is definately possible though.

As far as picking up the language...if you are just planning on staying for a year or two...its unlikely IMO that you would really pick up shedloads of it regardless of where you stay, esp if you wanted to learn characters. I havent been to that many places in China, but Mandarin is spoken in most places, although the quality of Mandarin may vary.

[TEFLnoob]

I appreciate the candid reply.

I would like to defend the qualifications bit. I know it probably seems snobbish for a recent grad to suggest he can hop into the business for a year and pop out when others have earned higher degrees and gained years of experience.

However, when I said I understood grammar, I meant that I knew a bit more than when to use 'who' vs. 'whom.' I know my conditionals (granted, not from German - I learned about them in high school Latin). I can explain countable vs. uncountable nouns fairly easily, I imagine. Let's drink some beer. I'll drink eight beers. I should drink less beer, tomorrow I'll have fewer beers.

Granted, I still admit I'd probably find problems as an advanced grammar teacher because, as you said, speaking it isn't always speaking it. I'm not quite sure how I would tell students to deal with dangling participles - "that is something up with which I will not put." I'm not quite sure where to draw the line between acceptable and unaccaptable colloqualisms.

Also, I agree with your point on professionalism; I just also believe that I could be successful with enthusiasm, thoughtfulness, preparation and a bit of training.

I will say that, without TEFL, I wouldn't teach with a company that didn't offer training. China is looking like my most likely destination because many firms there seem to offer training, as well as TEFL on completion. I am worried about the difficulty of Mandarin, and the characters in particular. I hope that if I take regular classes, though, and perhaps keep away from the ex-pat bars, I can develop it enough that it's at least somewhat marketable.

Thanks again for your response.

P.S. - sorry for double post, mods.

[nickpellatt]

Yeah, most people dont really know any grammar when it comes to EFL ... knowing another language does help as you normally learn some grammar when learning the other language. In honesty, I work with people now ... teaching on a summer program, who dont know what a conditional or a countable noun is. They normally think the English tense system is just past/present/future too! Hence my mentioning of grammar.

Beer is a funny one though. Beer is actually uncountable I think ... we qualify it with pints or glasses first. Common usage differs though, because as you have said ... we can say 'Ill have 8 beers'. I mentioned the countable / uncountable nouns thing simply as my German students often make errors like this. 'Money' is the classic one... its uncountable btw. I have a lot of errors about 'how many money does it cost?'. They are mixing up ��� or $$$$ (countable) with money which isnt.

Anyway ... I digress...and at length too!

China is definately possible...Im very suprised though that you have found people in China who train employees ... this is probably one area in the world where many employers offer less training than anywhere else in the world!!! It is absolutely definately not the norm in China...and being thrust into a classroom with no prep, materials or training is far more common in China, than training would be. I would check very carefully the links and programs you have looked at in China. Training and certification really isnt the norm there, and programs and recruiters that offer it may be a bit dodgy IMO.

I have seen programs which offer a qualification of sorts, and then a placement of sorts. These tend to ask for a fee for the training, and then pay very low salaries on the placements.

I do know a group that has quite a good reputation as being genuine ... and they may offer some training, which is more like a settling in program really...although they offer placements miles from the main cities, and wages are scaled to match their schools. Google 'Buckland group China'. They also have a facebook page where you can (presumably) connect with past and current teachers

Mandarin is quite easy to speak when you get around the tonal system. It is hard to learn in China due to the reaction of many local people to foreigners, and foreigners speaking Chinese. Its oft discussed and very common that you will speak a fairly correct and legible phrase in Chinese, and have a reply of 'Sorry I dont understand English'.

I do have some decent links and PDFs for learning Chinese though. If you do decide on China, let me know on here and I might be able to help with those.

Im not a China expert ... but I did a 3 month volunteer placement in Hainan at a middle school, followed by 18 months at a college. I head back there in December for work at a private language college.

[Glenski]

"pick up a foreign language" is not as easy as it seems unless you are a savant polyglot, IMO. Working overseas and trying to learn the local language simultaneously takes a lot of hard work and discipline and time.

You are minimally qualified for most entry level jobs in Japan. Think JET Programme.

[TEFLnoob]

Thanks for the tip on JET - I've heard good things about that program. I understand picking up a foreign language can be an immense project. Wherever I go, I expect to enroll in some sort of intensive course; hopefully, along with immersion, I should pick up some new language skills.

[Glenski]

Not sure how one could take an intensive course and still work 40 hours a week.

[nickpellatt]

"I can develop it enough that it's at least somewhat marketable."

I take it from that you mean it will be useful for work/career etc when you go back home? With Mandarin, that will be very very hard and unlikely. Even if you were coming her purely to study, and not bothering with teaching.

Marketable Mandarin skills will probably mean being able to read characters, not just speaking skills. Learning characters will require full time study, and a long term commitment I reckon.

The other difficultly learning Chinese in China, is that the way they teach is perhaps not best suited to our learning skills. I have had formal classes with qualified Chinese teachers, and the approach doesnt tend to be on communicative competence as we may be used to (and even teach ourselves) but on rote memorisation ... which tends to be the way Chinese learn languages. Add to that the complexity of stroke order when writing (you have to make strokes in a certain order when writing characters) means its incredibly hard, and time consuming.

And if you're left handed ..... LOL, its about 100 times harder!

[word_to_the_wise]

Do an internationally recognised initial TT course OP - that's the best place to start.As it is for everyone.

CELTA, Trinity or SIT (is it? Justin)

It must have a practical teaching component and absolutely not online.