Job Discussion Forums

[basiltherat]

[Marcoregano]

As a traveller I have often wondered about this. I certainly agree that with the exception of sport, which seems to stir up our neanderthal qualities (and where doesn't it?), English people are remarkably non-nationalistic when compared with most other nationalties. The Dutch are similar. My students in HK are aften surprised to hear me slagging off certain aspects of English life, while they wouldn't dream of doing the same about HK or China...certainly not in front of a foreigner.

I think khmerhit is on the right lines. In terms of the length of time we have had freedom of speech and democracy etc. England is light years ahead of most of the planet. Fact. That perhaps explains why we are so cynical about our own institutions. We have had plenty of time to see that the best laid plans of mice and men usually screw up in the end. Many other countries, especially developing ones, still think nirvana is achievable this side of the grave. They will also become cynics given time.

[arioch36]

[Mark-O]

[Roger]

khmerhit wrote:

Here is my take-- the younger and weaker the country, the more its patriots pipe up. ? [/quote]

In my humble view, Americans are just as patriotic as Chinese and other "weaker" nations are - same oversensitivity too. Always hard to avoid their taboos because to others these "taboos" simply make no sense.

[Roger]

Most Brits I met were living in one of their former colonies; it's hard to arrive at some reasonable depiction of them based on colonial types: those in Zimbabwe kept aloof of the rest of humanity; those in Hong Kong were administrators, and the teachers I knew there were a bizarre mixture of misanthropic elitists living overseas because there they made their money the easiest way. Those I rubbed shoulders with in South Africa were more open to dialogue with others, perhaps because they were fiercely opposed to the Afrikaaner government of the apartheid epoch.

It would be too easy to see human imperfections in British attitudes; we all are likely to be the same under similar circumstances.
In my childhood I learnt to admire the Brits for their humour; these days no one ever tells me that the Brits are famous for it.

It may be an interim period.

[Sonnet]

I agree with Mark-O's comment about Paxman's book, it's pretty interesting reading for any Brit or anyone who cares to find out what makes us tick.

And the whole insecurity thing is hitting the nail smack on the head here, I think. I love England, but I spend most of my time complaining about it; I think we're all so used to & secure about the benefits of our country that we don't feel the need to extol them at every opportunity. Equally, if England's the best country in the world then howcome most of us have chosen to be living somewhere else right now?

Oh, and one last point. I seem to be alone in this, but some of the other English guys I was out in China with last summer were pretty much constantly banging on about how superior we were to the locals. That might just be an individual thing, though; generally most of us do seem to be a bit more cynical & relaxed in our views.

[Mike_2003]

I think another issue which has been overlooked is the connection between patriotism/nationalism and racism. When I lived in the UK I always had the feeling that most people associated these things closely. People appeared almost embarrassed to make proclamations of national pride for fear of being labelled a racist.

Once a driver at a company I was working at pinned up an English flag in the back of his lorry's cab. The boss told him to remove it because it "set a bad impression". In a country like Turkey the boss would probably be jailed for a comment like that!

I also remember watching Euro2000 on the TV. Whenever the reporters came across a group of fans decked out in the national colours, waving flags, singing boisterously, they would comment about the "wonderfully colourful demonstration of the -insert nationality here- fans" or some such remark. However, whenever a group of English fans were observed doing the same thing, it was more a case of "tut, tut, we don't like to see that. Shameful..." These were English commentators incidentally, but it seems to hint at a kind of awkward embarrassment and unease at displays of patriotism.

So I really do feel that patriotism is closely linked to the image of football-supporting, Sun-reading, string-vested, skin-headed racist thugs in the mindset of the English populous and so many people are cautious about exhibiting any such emotions outwardly.

[Mark-O]

Mike,

Good point. I've always heard the phrase "there's a thin line between racism and patriotism".

Of course, groups of crass thugs such as 'The British Nationalist Party', remind you of why this phrase exists.

[mjed9]

Every country has its racist problems.

My slant on this is that England, culturally, has had a huge impact on the entire world which allows for a subdued patriotism. Maybe Paxman is right that this has been tainted with shame at falling so far from a once-powerful empire. But then again we are all "teachers of English" - that's English as in the language of England. England has afforded us all the opportunity to travel the world and teach - a bloody good reason why the English can be proud (but in a controlled stiff upper lip way)

No-one has yet mentioned music. I still think England produces some of the best music ever.

And as for comedy I believe we are still cutting edge in that department.

[ntropy]

My experience working with British expats is that it is true that they will whine and whinge about the UK endlessly, something that is only exceeded by whining and whinging even more about other countries.

I was working on the Saudi peninsula during the last Gulf war and my British colleagues took great pride in not only the successes of the British army but even greater delight in the failings of the US army.

There is a very deeply ingrained pride in and defence of "Mother England" underneath that veneer. As a joke, I once told a colleague that we used to have pictures of the queen on our stamps in Canada but we had to replace them with a maple leaf because people were spitting on the wrong side. I barely got out of the canteen with my life intact. Wasn't considered too funny coming from me.

[khmerhit]

Yes, I told the following joke once to my boss when i worked in an English bingo hall. He was ex-Army; he didnt like it, especially coming from a Canuck...But then he had a point, it's not a pleasant joke.

***********************************************************

Q--What's white and flies through the air at three hundred miles an hour?

A--Lord Mountbatten's plimsoll.

***********************************************************

[Mike_2003]

Another point is that it seems to be globally acceptable to be as rude and as offensive as is humanly possible about English people. As someone else mentioned in a similar vein, when asked "What do you think of Turkey?" by a Turk, I'll answer focusing on the positives. But unprompted, they'll launch into a diatribe of abuse about England and the English. It's the same whenever I meet Aussies or N. Americans or whoever...

For example, the joke above about the stamp. Now, the impression seems to me to be that telling a joke like that to an English person would be acceptable. What kind of reaction would you expect? However, if the offended English person reacts in any way, the accusations of arrogance and of being "above one's station" start to fly. So we are supposed to just grin and accept that we are not worthy of the normal rules of human decency? Whatever the sins of the British Empire, there are not the doing of the majority of English people now. The USAians seem to suffer in a similar fashion.

If you met someone who told you how whilst in Turkey they had made a joke about spitting on Ataturk's face, most people would consider the offender to be extremely ignorant, rude, culturally-insensitive and well-deserving of whatever horrific retribution occurred.

Reserved we may be, but whatever you think, we don't have hearts made of stone.

[grahamb]

What tickles me is the lynch mob reaction whenever the English football team loses a match. Remember the outcry when it was announced that Sven Goran Erikson was to be the new manager? Pass the sick bag.

[Teacher in Rome]

The title of the post is intriguing. Do you feel English, or British?

Although my passport says British, I feel much more English in identity than I do British. But I suspect that what I feel being "English" (from a small village in the south of England) is completely different from what other people might feel being English.

In fact, what I like most about the place I grew up in, is the fact that there are so many identities. England and Britain seem unique to me in that your ethnic, religious and social background - no matter how diverse - do not detract from your nationality.

True, there are bigots who will tell you that you should be a certain colour / religion combination to be English / British; but the sane majority don't seem to give a stuff.