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desultude
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 614
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 Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephen Jones wrote: |
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| a Canadian nurse was stuck in the Kingdom for FOUR years while undergoing a labor dispute |
She could simply have given power of attorney to a Saudi lawyer and left, unless she was the one being sued. |
She couldn't get an exit visa. She was caught in a limbo where her company was bought by another, and she couldn't get proper documents. She prevailed in her suit, but it did take four years. That is all of the particulars I personally know, but she was friends with a number of people I knew, so the story was corroborated and cross referenced. |
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Middle East Beast
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 836
Location: Up a tree
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Mia Xanthi wrote: |
| There are those places (like the IPA and KFUPM) who have figured out that the key to retaining staff is hiring with great care and then treating faculty like trusted professionals. |
Right. And then there are those employers, among them BAE, STA, SDT, Khafji Joint Operations, and Prince Sultan Military College of Health Sciences, who have not. |
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Never Ceased To Be Amazed
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 3500
Location: Shhh...don't talk to me...I'm playin' dead...
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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Might I just interject in defense of saudi arabia...ahem...saudi sux...m'kay?
NCTBA
The really sad truth is no matter HOW MUCH WE SHOUT FROM THE RAFTERS, you'll always have people gravitating towards the mythical saudi Gold Ring...
Truly sad... |
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Middle East Beast
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 836
Location: Up a tree
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Who's shouting? |
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Charybdis
Joined: 08 Aug 2009
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:09 pm Post subject: Canadian Nurse Who Couldn't Leave KSA |
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I know the lady in question personally. She couldn't leave for four years because she didn't have an exit visa. Also, she was owed nearly
US $100,000 in wages, and didn't want to leave without her money. The hospital where she worked at least was paying her a wage currently and she had a place to live, so she stuck it out. But she suffered.
Horror stories like my friend's, combined with other things I saw firsthand at PMU and locally, led me to conclude that living in KSA was something to definitely be avoided in the future. Our Saudi administrators at PMU either treated us with outright contempt or ignored us totally (the latter was how they defiintely preferred to deal with women), and the Westerners they put in charge of us usually were either mouth-pieces and spineless, or viscious bullies who took full advantage of their power and position to inflict additional pain and suffering. In short, as Mia Xiantha says, we were treated very poorly. |
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Mia Xanthi
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 955
Location: why is my heart still in the Middle East while the rest of me isn't?
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| the Westerners they put in charge of us usually were either mouth-pieces and spineless, or viscious bullies who took full advantage of their power and position to inflict additional pain and suffering. |
Just to be entirely clear, Charbydis and I had different experiences on this point.
As I am sure Charbydis would agree, the Western female supervisors were excellent, outstanding professionals and good people. Personally, I was treated with great consideration by all Western supervisors at PMU (male and female alike) and I felt supported to the full extent possible under the circumstances. All of the supervisors were constrained by Saudi administration, and many had to implement or support policies they did not fully agree with. IMHO, they did a good job under hard circumstances.
Charbydis and others may disagree with me, and that is their right. We experience places and people differently. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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If she was working I can understand her wanting to stay to see the result of the court case through instead of hoping the lawyer would deal with it.
It is cases like this, company transfers and old company goes bankrupt, where you would expect the embassy to intervene to sort out the paperwork. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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"Some contributors to this discussion indicate that it is easy to simply resign and leave the country without a problem . . . ."
Whoever posted that was full of something or other.
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If your contract has a probationary period then you can leave during that period without having to reimburse anything to your employer, unless you have been given loans or a housing allowance.
That said the kind of employer you would want to leave in the first three months is likely to try and make things as difficult as possible for you. |
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Middle East Beast
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 836
Location: Up a tree
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephen Jones wrote: |
If your contract has a probationary period then you can leave during that period without having to reimburse anything to your employer, unless you have been given loans or a housing allowance.
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True, if they decide to dump you during the probationary period.
If you decide to dump them during the probationary period, then you can be liable for ALL of their recruting expenses--airfare, visa, medical among them. And you pay for your return ticket. That's a fact. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| I now believe I will not go thru the steps I would have to go thru in order to start working in Jeddah on Sept. 26, 2009. |
KAAU is a respectable employer. There are reasons for not working there but fearing it will deliberately ignore the law is not one of them. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| If you decide to dump them during the probationary period, then you can be liable for ALL of their recruting expenses--airfare, visa, medical among them. And you pay for your return ticket. That's a fact. |
That's not a fact, that's a scam.
You do pay for your return ticket, but not your incoming ticket. |
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Middle East Beast
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 836
Location: Up a tree
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Stephen Jones,
With all due respect, it may be a scam, but it is indeed a fact. I know what almost happened to me in Khafji. That employer lied to me about every aspect of the job. Some of the lies were untenable.
Would anyone like to dispute another person's personal experience there? The fact that it would have happened to me if I hadn't been careful to time my resignation from Khafji to take effect after the 90 days sort of makes it a fact, doesn't it?
I'd be happy to provide a scanned copy of the applicable page of my most recent contract in the KSA, which lists NO rights for the employee during the 90-day probationary period, only those of the employer. |
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Middle East Beast
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 836
Location: Up a tree
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephen Jones wrote: |
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| I now believe I will not go thru the steps I would have to go thru in order to start working in Jeddah on Sept. 26, 2009. |
KAAU is a respectable employer. There are reasons for not working there but fearing it will deliberately ignore the law is not one of them. |
You're right, Stephen Jones. That's not the only important consideration in light of the horrible experiences shared on this thread, is it? |
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Charybdis
Joined: 08 Aug 2009
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:47 pm Post subject: Response to Mia Xanthi |
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I respect Mia Xanthi's comments, but, to an extent, do respectfully disagree. The women administrators were super, but completely powerless and not well respected either by their Western counterparts or the Saudi administration. The one woman administrator who did have the courage to speak her mind was summarily relieved of her position one day without notice, and put into a new position that did not involve direct supervision of (female) Saudi administrative personnel.
As for the Western men administrators (only 3 of them remain), I stand by my previous statements. They either were nice and generally ineffectual (1), or rude, abusive and dismissive (2). The Saudi administators, to a man, were uncompassionate, penny-pinching, and sometimes cruel in their treatment of faculty. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| That's not the only important consideration in light of the horrible experiences shared on this thread, is it? |
Actually, the most important consideration by far is who is the employer. All the horror stories you have mentioned come from private employers of dubious reputation. There are no complaints on these threads about abuse of contract by government institutions, or large private companies such as BAE, Raytheon or Dallah. These institutions might drive you mad with their bureaucracy (and yes if your father dies you might find yourself denied compassionate leave even if the regulations insist on it and by the time you've appealed it's too late for the funeral) but they won't try and scam you.
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I'd be happy to provide a scanned copy of the applicable page of my most recent contract in the KSA, which lists NO rights for the employee during the 90-day probationary period, only those of the employer. |
Yea, the Labour law allows a contract that gives the right to terminate the contract to only one party.
Article 53:
If the workman is subject to a probation period, the fact must be explicitly
stated and clearly identified in the employment contract. Such probation
period shall not exceed 90 days, exclusive of �Id al- Adha and �Id al- Fitr
holidays and sick leaves. Each party shall have the right to terminate the
contract during this period, unless the contract embodies a clause giving
the right to terminate the contract to only one of them.
I think they'd actually have to have a clause explicitly stating the probationary period doesn't apply to you mind you.
There are basically two simple rules to follow that will avoid much grief. Check up the reputation of your employer very carefully; go through the contract with a fine toothcomb. |
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